The Official T-Mac Thread

[CODE_BLUE56]

all of those you have bolded are considerably higher on the HOF scale

except for Monroe

again the scale is not the end all be all of anything but something to point out

[CODE_BLUE56]

databaseBasketball.com - NBA Basketball Statistics, Draft, Awards, and History

First, a few words about the Basketball Hall of Fame. When we think of hall of fames we usually think of them as being associated with one particular institution, such as the Baseball Hall of Fame and MLB or the Football Hall of Fame and the NFL, but basketball is different for a number of reasons. Basketball is a more global sport than most other professional American sports. It is not only played in many different countries and regions, but also played very well. It is also a cross gender sport, making the Basketball Hall of Fame open to many more women than the other hall of fames. And lastly, until the mid 1950's there were a variety of major pro basketball leagues throughout the country. Because of all of this, the basketball hall of fame has a wider variety and more diverse selection of players, coaches and contributors. The formula used for the HOF Monitor is really only valid for players who have played their entire careers in the NBA, ABA or a combination of both. For example, Arvydas Sabonis may make the hall of fame, but it will have more to do with his performance on the Russian National Team than for his play in the NBA.

For more information on the selection process for the Basketball Hall of Fame, visit their web site at The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame - Home.

The Hall of Fame Monitor is a formula with six components. It is meant to be used as a guide and not as a hard and fast rule. There are some players who do very well according to the formula and are not in the hall of fame, but for the most part this formula is a good scale.

The Formula:

# 75 points for each NBA MVP award
# 15 points for each All NBA First Team selection
# 1 point for each point of NBA career Approximate Value and .33 points for each point of ABA career Approximate Value
# 2.5 points for each point of NBA career Efficiency
# 3.5 points for each NBA Championship
# -20 points for centers and -15 points for forwards

Formula Explanations

NBA MVP
Being an NBA MVP has been the best way to get into the hall. Every NBA MVP who is eligible for the Hall of Fame is in the Hall of Fame. When a player wins an MVP award, its almost as good as getting enshrined.

All NBA First Team
Being elected NBA First Team carries some weight with the hall. 80% of players who were All NBA First Team two or more times and are eligible for the hall of fame, are in the hall of fame. The percentage jumps to 96% for players with three or more NBA First Team selections. Being selected to an All NBA First team should be slightly easier for a forward or guard than a center because two forwards and guards are selected as opposed to one center.

Approximate Value (AV)
Approximate Value is a statistical calculation that provides an idea of how much a player contributed to his team over the course of a season. The career AV will provide an idea of how much a player contributed to his teams over the course of his entire career. This component gives players credit for long, solid careers. ABA AV is not given as much credit as NBA AV. The AV is also slightly biased towards centers and forwards.

Efficiency (EFF)
Efficiency is a measure of a players impact per game. Since it is a per game average, it helps players who had short, but spectacular careers. It is also the only component that can decrease over time. So a player who has a career EFF of 20.1 after five seasons, may fall off and only have a career EFF of 17.3 after 10 seasons. This means that the HOF Monitor score can actually fall for some players over time. EFF is slightly biased towards centers and forwards.

NBA Championship
Winning an NBA Championship is a good thing in the eyes of the Hall of Fame voters. It also gives that player some publicity and possibly enhances the perception that he is a great player. Players who play on multiple championship teams have a slightly increased chance of making the Hall of Fame.

C and F Penalty
The slight bias towards centers and forwards that AV and EFF have needs to be acounted for with a penalty. Centers are penalized 20 points and forwards are penalized 15 points. Each player in our system has been assigned one single position. This is not ideal, but in most cases works out fine. Players who play multiple positions were given the position that they played most over the course of their career.

This formula provides a handy guide for rating a player's HOF chances. It is not meant to be a way to compare players of different eras. 85% of all players with a HOF Monitor score of 135 or more and are eligible are in the Hall of Fame. 99% of players with a score of 160 or greater and are eligible are in the Hall of Fame. One thing you will notice is that good players tend to jump out to a quick pace. This is because of the player's career EFF score. Keep in mind that the career EFF score will probably not move very much for a player and in most cases will actually drop off as the player becomes older and his skills diminish.

[USCChiFan]

This thread needs this:

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Of course it was...........................................

you should have watched that 2005 series... pretty interesting stuff happened in it.

I'm surprised you didn't include Clyde Drexler in your wing player list but you included some of those other guys... very interesting, indeed. I would have gave you Oscar Robertson too, even though he was essentially a PG.

[CODE_BLUE56]

Originally Posted by USCChiFan

This thread needs this:

i didnt know u were gay

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Code Blue, MVP awards and All-NBA awards are subjective and shouldn't count in any ridiculous formula.

(especially All-NBA team awards... [see every all-defensive list ever through NBA history])

[CODE_BLUE56]

I think T Mac has better numbers than Clyde but Clyde is higher on the HOF scale because of his playoff success with portland and houston

[CODE_BLUE56]

Originally Posted by RamiTheBullsFan

Code Blue, MVP awards and All-NBA awards are subjective and shouldn't count in any ridiculous formula.

(especially All-NBA team awards... [see every all-defensive list ever through NBA history])

i see what you're saying

however the HOF monitor does not necessarily judge how good a person is but the success of their careers

you can have two guys who have nearly identical statistics one guy has a more steady career the other started out as a bench and had a massive peak and won tons of awards and sloped down again

the more erratic guy will have the higher HOF rating even tho the statistics say they are even

yes there are flaws but even tho All NBA teams and MVPs are subjective it does not mean they shouldnt have some worth in judging a player

you cant just use pure statistics to judge a player

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I think All-NBA teams are so flawed that, if anything, they skew the outlook how good players really were - while overrating others.

People need to watch the games, and decide for themselves. Basketball is a team game... so you need to look at it for what it is, man...

I much prefer ranking teams than players, personally. I wonder how Jordan would have fared against the NY Knicks in the 90s if they featured Wilt Chamberlain, instead of Patrick Ewing...

Guys like John Stockton and Gary Payton and great players from the Bulls/90s era get snubbed hardcore with that "system" or "formula."

[CODE_BLUE56]

the NBA is a players game...the team does not matter....lebron has never had an actual team and he had the cavs in contention for a while.

players dictate everything and if you're trying to say that stockton and payton were snubbed because of jordan..well i dont see them doing better in any other era except maybe the the 60s and 70s but is it really relevant to the arguement might as well put all the other greats from the 90s in there and jordan and everyone else...well what happens then...Gary's numbers are honestly not extremely impressive however he makes up for it by his amazing defense without that i honestly think he would barely be in the HOF and gary's best years were actually near the end and after jordan...i just dont know if he would win championships in another era..i dont see it.....you can say that a lot of players didnt get high on the monitor because of jordan but would 90s payton and the sonics...and would the stockton and malone jazz..could they beat the lakers or miami or 2010? i dont like these hypotheticals because it messes things up and it never happened and never will so its hard to show what would happen...you can speculate all you want but you have no idea how stockton and payton would fare in a different era...and honestly i dont think they would have much more success because we dont realize that the game is continuing to evolve and the level of competition is not as drastically different as we make it to be


maybe im just rambling but to stay relevant to T Mac

was he a good player? yes

did he put up impressive stats? yes

was he able to elevate himself into all time great status? ehhhh not necessarily

you can bicker all you want and make excuses but at the end of the day T Mac DID get the opportunity to play with decent peaces and had the opportunity to do something in the playoffs and never really got anywhere

McGrady will always be remembered for the playoffs as never winning a championship as a top guy....kind of sad....but its not like he ever got close to winning it eiter

but not to worry there are plenty of great players that are in the HOF that didnt win jack...Nique is the one that first comes to mind... T Mac will be in the HOF im almost sure of it but he wont be up anywhere near kobe or shaq or duncan heck even AI is higher

because the postseason is what defines players

its why lebron left cleveland after winning 2 MVPs and having back to back 60 win seasons