The Importance of the NBA Center and how it relates to the Bulls

[houheffna]

I believe to a certain degree, college basketball has something to do with the big man shortage. Just not enough coaching staffs at that level are teaching young big men how to thrive on the NBA level. Is it their job? Maybe not, but if I had a 7 footer growing up in my house, I would want to know who is that guy that can help my son mature into an NBA player.

I watch to many games where the big men in college are for rebounding and intimidating guards that go to the basket. In the NBA it is about a lot more than that. And while there is a point guard factory it seems in Kentucky, there is no Georgetown anymore, grooming big men. It is going to be interesting to see the dynamics going forward.

With your argument, which is a pretty good one, and was THE prototype for championship teams until the 1990's. What about the Miami Heat? Dwight Howard is the best center in the game, and while he has a dominant presence defensively, Kareem, Moses or Hakeem he ain't.

[Crystallas]

Don't forget Mark Eaton in the 80s. He is very under appreciated, but he was a legit hard-nosed Center, just not a major offensive player. I think being in Utah, his stock dropped LOL, but a ton of teams would have loved him. Other than that, I agree with everything.

[NealKleren]

Originally Posted by Scoot26

I think if an NBA Finals involving the Bulls were close and exciting like that I would probably die of a heart attack. That first round series in 2009 nearly gave me a heart attack lol.

LMAO I know what you mean

[JCM]

Originally Posted by Scoot26

I think if an NBA Finals involving the Bulls were close and exciting like that I would probably die of a heart attack. That first round series in 2009 nearly gave me a heart attack lol.

ever since that 2009 series i been having anxiety disorders lol.

[methusala]

Originally Posted by Scoot26

Back in 2008, I did some research on what teams had when they won championships, and I found something that nearly every team had in common. Nearly all of them had an All-Star center. And in even more cases, they had a center that went on to go into the Hall-of-Fame.

And of course Bulls fans ignore all of this because of one man, Michael Jordan. Jordan won six NBA titles without an All-Star center, so most people think any team can win without the All-Star center.

First paragraph was my entire thesis of Bosh/Boozer (and not trading Noah for anyone) being the most important thing for the Bulls this offseason.

Second paragraph was 90%+ of the rebuttals. Lol.

Size and depth wins championships. Jordan is an exception to the rule.

[dougthonus]

This is really an example of biased sampling of data. Basically every team except for Jordan's Bulls and the Detroit Pistons (really in all three title seasons) had dominant inside/outside combinations.

Look at the best player on title teams for the past 30 years:
(7) PG Magic(4), Billups(1), Isiah (2)
(9) SG Jordan (6), Wade (1), Kobe (2)
(4) SF Bird (3), Pierce (1)
(4) PF Duncan (4)
(6) C Shaq (3), Hakeem (2), Moses (1)

We can argue about Parker/Duncan and who was more important the last season, but I gave credit to Duncan. However, even so, you've got 10 total big men led titles with 4 players over 30 years accounting for those big men and 16 guard driven titles with six different players accounting for the guards. Given that Bird and Pierce were also perimeter driven players it makes more sense to put them in with the guards as well, and if you did so, it'd be 20 to 10.

Almost every title team in existence has a premier interior threat and an premier perimeter threat. How many teams won a title without a HOF caliber perimeter player?

Houston won one. Depending whether Parker / Billups get into the HOF, you can argue those guys as well, so you have a maximum of 6 champions without a HOF caliber perimeter player.

How many won without a HOF caliber interior player.
Bulls 3-6 (depending on whether Rodman gets in)
Pistons 0-3 (depending on Rodman/Rasheed/Big ben)
Lakers 0-2 (depending on Pau Gasol)

You have more players who've won by perimeter dominant players than interior dominant players. You have more players who've played the role as the dominant guy as a guard rather than as a big man. You have potentially more teams who've won without a dominant big man then have won without a dominant guard.

In conclusion, the best way to look at all this data is simply to say that you need elite players to win. It's best if those elite players play in different spots on the floor (one on the perimeter one on the interior).

However, I don't think that this case extends to Joakim Noah a whole lot. For one, he's no where near a HOF caliber big man, nor will he ever be a HOF caliber big man. Getting a guy like Carmelo Anthony who may be a HOF caliber wing player is far more likely to make us successful than having a non HOF caliber big man IMO, especially given that the Bulls do have an all-star caliber big man on the roster in terms of Boozer.

[Scoot26]

Originally Posted by houheffna

With your argument, which is a pretty good one, and was THE prototype for championship teams until the 1990's. What about the Miami Heat? Dwight Howard is the best center in the game, and while he has a dominant presence defensively, Kareem, Moses or Hakeem he ain't.

It still is the prototype today. If the Miami Heat do win a title, its basically the same as the 08 Celtics. They are an exception to the rule, though they do have a tall PF in Chris Bosh, but Bosh doesnt play his back to the basket much. After Jordan left the Spurs (DRob+Duncan), Lakers (Shaq), Pistons (Ben Wallace), Heat (Shaq), Celtics (Perkins), Lakers (Gasol) won titles. All but Perkins was an All-Star center, so to me it has still applied.

And yes, centers are weak right now. Dwight Howard doesnt match up to Kareem, Moses or Hakeem. Thats why a team like the Miami Heat have a better chance of winning a championship. Though to me, the Heat still need to get past the inside presence of the LA Lakers. And if the Magic get rid of Vince Carter, they can give the Heat alot of trouble too.

[Scoot26]

Originally Posted by dougthonus

This is really an example of biased sampling of data. Basically every team except for Jordan's Bulls and the Detroit Pistons (really in all three title seasons) had dominant inside/outside combinations.

Look at the best player on title teams for the past 30 years:
(7) PG Magic(4), Billups(1), Isiah (2)
(9) SG Jordan (6), Wade (1), Kobe (2)
(4) SF Bird (3), Pierce (1)
(4) PF Duncan (4)
(6) C Shaq (3), Hakeem (2), Moses (1)

We can argue about Parker/Duncan and who was more important the last season, but I gave credit to Duncan. However, even so, you've got 10 total big men led titles with 4 players over 30 years accounting for those big men and 16 guard driven titles with six different players accounting for the guards. Given that Bird and Pierce were also perimeter driven players it makes more sense to put them in with the guards as well, and if you did so, it'd be 20 to 10.

Almost every title team in existence has a premier interior threat and an premier perimeter threat. How many teams won a title without a HOF caliber perimeter player?

Houston won one. Depending whether Parker / Billups get into the HOF, you can argue those guys as well, so you have a maximum of 6 champions without a HOF caliber perimeter player.

How many won without a HOF caliber interior player.
Bulls 3-6 (depending on whether Rodman gets in)
Pistons 0-3 (depending on Rodman/Rasheed/Big ben)
Lakers 0-2 (depending on Pau Gasol)

You have more players who've won by perimeter dominant players than interior dominant players. You have more players who've played the role as the dominant guy as a guard rather than as a big man. You have potentially more teams who've won without a dominant big man then have won without a dominant guard.

In conclusion, the best way to look at all this data is simply to say that you need elite players to win. It's best if those elite players play in different spots on the floor (one on the perimeter one on the interior).

However, I don't think that this case extends to Joakim Noah a whole lot. For one, he's no where near a HOF caliber big man, nor will he ever be a HOF caliber big man. Getting a guy like Carmelo Anthony who may be a HOF caliber wing player is far more likely to make us successful than having a non HOF caliber big man IMO, especially given that the Bulls do have an all-star caliber big man on the roster in terms of Boozer.

I did look at the other facts surrounding the issue. I didnt say the center is always the best player. As you said, hardly is the center the best player, especially lately. But a All-Star center paired with an All-Star perimeter player is what it takes to get the title. The Shaq-Wade, Duncan-Parker, Bird-Parish, Magic-Kareem, Kobe-Shaq combo's. An undersized PF does not work in this. And if you have crap at center (providing you dont have Jordan) you're not winning either. You can get there..plenty of teams have done that (Dallas, Cleveland, New Jersey, Knicks, Utah, Seattle, Phoenix, Portland are examples since 1990).

To me if we lost Noah for Carmelo, we are on par with ..the best example I can come up with is the 90's Sonics team. Detlef Schremphf is nowhere close to Carmelo, but Shawn Kemp was much better than Boozer is. Rose doesnt have the defensive capabilities of Gary Payton, but they're both All-Star PG's.

Boozer is undersized at PF and will be matched up against much bigger PF's in the playoffs that will dominate him if Boozer doesnt have help (Which happened in Utah). A player of Noah's capabilities takes pressure of Boozer on both ends of the court.

And obviously Noah will not likely make the Hall-of-Fame (Though if people are making a case for Rodman..one could be made for Noah if he managed to somehow become like Rodman [without Rodman's hothead]). But Noah being an All-Star or playing on an All-Star level to me increases our chances greatly.

[Prope]

If Luc Longley was anything, he was more than 'crap at center'

[Scoot26]

Originally Posted by Prope

If Luc Longley was anything, he was more than 'crap at center'

lol...Yeah Longley is the worst starting center to ever win a championship.