The Importance of the NBA Center and how it relates to the Bulls

[JCM]

White Panther> Luc

[dougthonus]

I did look at the other facts surrounding the issue. I didnt say the center is always the best player. As you said, hardly is the center the best player, especially lately. But a All-Star center paired with an All-Star perimeter player is what it takes to get the title. The Shaq-Wade, Duncan-Parker, Bird-Parish, Magic-Kareem, Kobe-Shaq combo's. An undersized PF does not work in this. And if you have crap at center (providing you dont have Jordan) you're not winning either. You can get there..plenty of teams have done that (Dallas, Cleveland, New Jersey, Knicks, Utah, Seattle, Phoenix, Portland are examples since 1990).

To me if we lost Noah for Carmelo, we are on par with ..the best example I can come up with is the 90's Sonics team. Detlef Schremphf is nowhere close to Carmelo, but Shawn Kemp was much better than Boozer is. Rose doesnt have the defensive capabilities of Gary Payton, but they're both All-Star PG's.

Boozer is undersized at PF and will be matched up against much bigger PF's in the playoffs that will dominate him if Boozer doesnt have help (Which happened in Utah). A player of Noah's capabilities takes pressure of Boozer on both ends of the court.

And obviously Noah will not likely make the Hall-of-Fame (Though if people are making a case for Rodman..one could be made for Noah if he managed to somehow become like Rodman [without Rodman's hothead]). But Noah being an All-Star or playing on an All-Star level to me increases our chances greatly.

Every important big man on that list was a premier offensive threat first. Noah is not that. He doesn't fit that paradigm. So Noah is not the kind of guy who helps in the inside/outside game combination as described above. He's a good player who can obviously contribute in many ways, but Boozer is far closer than Noah to creating that insideout like combination.

It's also a no brainer that if Noah can play at an all-star level we'd be much better off. If Luol Deng could play at an all-star level we'd be much better off, if Derrick Rose can play at a superstar level we'd be much better off. In short, if any player can play much better than they were playing before we'll be much better off.

In terms of framing the importance of center as a reason not to trade for Anthony, it's more important, IMO, to acknowledge that Anthony is a top 15 (top 10?) player, and that Noah is not in that stratosphere. A borderline superstar in Anthony + all-star in Boozer + all-star in Rose (hope for borderline superstar this year) is much closer to a title than Rose/Noah/Boozer as a core.

Granted, Deng would also need to go out to match salaries, and his inclusion takes away considerably from our depth. Is Noah + Deng better than Anthony? Maybe for one season, but probably not to build around. It's always easier to build a championship team by condensing talent rather than having great depth.

[dougthonus]

Originally Posted by Prope

If Luc Longley was anything, he was more than 'crap at center'

Luc Longley wasn't a DLeague caliber guy by any stretch, but he was a below average center.

[Scoot26]

Originally Posted by dougthonus

Every important big man on that list was a premier offensive threat first. Noah is not that. He doesn't fit that paradigm. So Noah is not the kind of guy who helps in the inside/outside game combination as described above. He's a good player who can obviously contribute in many ways, but Boozer is far closer than Noah to creating that insideout like combination.

Ok, but what about Ben Wallace? Bill Laimbeer? Bill Russell was more defense than offense as well (Not comparing Noah to Bill Russell at all). These guys were not offensive threats first. I'm speaking on a level of pure All-Star players. Not a dominant offensive center or all-around guy.

In terms of framing the importance of center as a reason not to trade for Anthony, it's more important, IMO, to acknowledge that Anthony is a top 15 (top 10?) player, and that Noah is not in that stratosphere. A borderline superstar in Anthony + all-star in Boozer + all-star in Rose (hope for borderline superstar this year) is much closer to a title than Rose/Noah/Boozer as a core.

Granted, Deng would also need to go out to match salaries, and his inclusion takes away considerably from our depth. Is Noah + Deng better than Anthony? Maybe for one season, but probably not to build around. It's always easier to build a championship team by condensing talent rather than having great depth.

To me if we lose Noah..gain Anthony. We may win 60+ games, but we'll lose somewhere in the playoffs. We may even get a finals birth, but to me the guys with the interior players will get the final say. I just think Boozer will get beat up on the defensive end in the playoffs without help. Noah is that help. A guy like Erick Dampier is not going to help a ton. And while I believe the refs had an influence on the 2006 Finals, the end result was that the Mavs with Erick Dampier and Dirk Nowitzki (who is not a back to the basket guy) did not win the Finals.

I'm looking at the big picture here. And I just think thats what is needed to win it all.

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Like it or not, Joakim Noah is expendable.

Most of those teams that have won a championship have had an All-Star low-post scorer; Noah really isn't a guy who is going to get the ball thrown into him enough time to make plays.

So, in a nutshell, Carmelo Anthony would be tons more valuable to the Bulls (if they can unload Deng's hefty contract) than Noah.

I love Deng and Noah, but Anthony is too dominant of a scorer, and is now becoming one of the NBA's better defending wing guys, as well. Plus, he has the size and high-post ability to play the 4 against small line-ups.

I would eloborate on this more, right now, but I need to run to class...

[Diddy1122]

Well seeing as how I think this was sparked by a response I made in the Melo thread, I'll weigh in. I would trade Noah for Melo, if Melo is extended. However, we will definitely lose something that is not so easily replaced, atleast this season anyway. That's why a Melo extension is critical to the trade.

I hesitate to put Noah & Hakeem in the same sentence, but not since Hakeem have I seen a C with the ability to play perimeter D & actually be good at it. Noah just has a natural nose for the ball where ever it is, which you don't find in most big men these days. And more so, he's the ultimate competitor. Winning & doing whatever it takes to win is priority #1 with him, also something you don't see too much in the typical NBA player.

We would be better with Melo, yes & no. Scoring wise we would but our rebounding & interior D, which is the reason we made the playoffs last year, would be greatly affected. As the roster is presently structured, losing both Noah & Deng & only gaining Melo in return would greatly reduce the teams chances in the playoffs to the point that a first round exit is entirely possible.

[Scoot26]

Originally Posted by Diddy1122

Well seeing as how I think this was sparked by a response I made in the Melo thread, I'll weigh in. I would trade Noah for Melo, if Melo is extended. However, we will definitely lose something that is not so easily replaced, atleast this season anyway. That's why a Melo extension is critical to the trade.

I hesitate to put Noah & Hakeem in the same sentence, but not since Hakeem have I seen a C with the ability to play perimeter D & actually be good at it. Noah just has a natural nose for the ball where ever it is, which you don't find in most big men these days. And more so, he's the ultimate competitor. Winning & doing whatever it takes to win is priority #1 with him, also something you don't see too much in the typical NBA player.

We would be better with Melo, yes & no. Scoring wise we would but our rebounding & interior D, which is the reason we made the playoffs last year, would be greatly affected. As the roster is presently structured, losing both Noah & Deng & only gaining Melo in return would greatly reduce the teams chances in the playoffs to the point that a first round exit is entirely possible.

I actually didnt spark this just because of Noah and Deng for Melo rumors..I had this coming for awhile..I just felt now would be an opportune time to show the importance of a player like Noah.

Fans are always caught on by flashy stars who put up numbers. Melo is one of those guys. If Melo were traded here for Noah and Deng we would basically be the Denver Nuggets of the East. We would lack true power at shooting guard and be weak on interior D. Boozer is better than K-Mart, but we'll have no option at center. Nene is an undersized center in Denver and thats why they get ripped inside. Thats why they were ripped apart inside by the Lakers in the 09 Conference Finals as well.


Looking down the road, if we acquired Melo and somehow got a center in 2-3 years, we'd be fine. But centers are very hard to come by, and thats why I advocate keeping the one we already have. Melo will put more people in the seats, put more money in Reinsdorf pocket (for now) but it wont bring us any closer to a championship without interior support. Boozer alone isnt going to cut it

[TheStig]

I'd like to point out there are some concerning problems that Noah has. I still think he is a very good center but there are troubling things. He has yet to play a full season. He played well toward the last 1/3rd of the year before last and got injured last year. He gets pushed around by full size centers (the few left) and his man to man defense is overstated. He gives up an above average per to the opposing center.

[Scoot26]

Originally Posted by TheStig

He has yet to play a full season.

Yep. He's been in the league 3 seasons. In his second season he did play 80 games. Thats close enough. And wasnt he suspended a game in 08-09? Last year was his first year with a major injury.

He played well toward the last 1/3rd of the year before last and got injured last year.

Ok..yes..that happens to many players. He still made an impact last season.

He gets pushed around by full size centers (the few left) and his man to man defense is overstated. He gives up an above average per to the opposing center.

He did..but another year in the gym could do wonders. I dont know what he's been up to this offseason, so we'll have to see when the season begins. A guy like Dwight Howard though is going to punish everyone in the league.

[TheStig]

Originally Posted by Scoot26

Yep. He's been in the league 3 seasons. In his second season he did play 80 games. Thats close enough. And wasnt he suspended a game in 08-09? Last year was his first year with a major injury.



Ok..yes..that happens to many players. He still made an impact last season.



He did..but another year in the gym could do wonders. I dont know what he's been up to this offseason, so we'll have to see when the season begins. A guy like Dwight Howard though is going to punish everyone in the league.

I meant he hasn't put together a season playing at a high level. He only played well the last 1/3rd of 08/09. I don't need 82 games 75+ is good enough but he has to play at a high level. Injury's last year also prevented that. I want him to put it together for a full year. The strength may or may not come, he has a wirey build. I know Howard will beat up everyone but a lot of the better bigs post big games on him. His man D is a bit overrated, he gives up an above average per.