Breaking News: Ozzie Asks For Release, Done Managing The Sox

[whitesox901]

Originally Posted by HawkyTalky

KW is the one who put the Sox in the situation they're in now.....moreso than Ozzie....and he deserves to be the one taking the fall in the first round.

Instead, we're stuck with an idiot, lame-duck GM who no self-respecting Major League manager is going to want to work with after the infighting with his manager, making HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE signings and trades that have set this team up to fail for the next 5 years, and the lack of a farm system to fall back on.....and knowing that he's on thin ice and therefore both the new manager and KW may be on the way out anyway.

Yeah, the Dunn, Peavy and Rios contracts are heavy. But they were risks we had to take. We couldn't sit back and wait for Clayton Richard to develop if he wanted to win in 2009. Ozzie completely ruining Brian Anderson's career by not playing him regularly and giving him time to develop mixed with his hard of DeWayne Wise and Jerry Owens almost kind of forced us to look for a CF. Sure in hindsight he should have passed on Rios, but at the time he was having a down year and most figured if he could turn it around and swat 20-25 HR and play ablove average defense then the cost wouldn't be a big deal, The Dunn signing gave us a lefty power hitter that we lacked. Yeah Thome was cheaper, but also older and on the decline. Dunn was still young and had constantly hit 38+ HR a year, and this is coming off the Kotsay DH experiment. All risks that currently look like losses, but they were all moves at the time that were made to win now.

And look, I would have liked to see both go too, but I think if you look at it as I do.

Dumbass manager who takes no responsibility for anything vs the GM that every year gives us the best team in the division.

I think its safe to say they fired the right guy.

[Gunzaan]

Originally Posted by whitesox901

Ozzie was given his team, it was 2010 and it fared just as well as this team, i.e. not in the playoffs. And Ozzie made more than just "some" dumb decisions. His constant bunting orders (when he knows the Sox hitters can't do it), he pinch hits for the wrong people at the wrong time, constantly getting forced into "strike em out, throw em outs"

And why should Ozzie get an NL team? We play in a bandbox in the AL. Sure, if the Sox played in Comerica Park, or Safeco, or Oakland then sure, give him his "Ozzieball" team. But when you play 81 games at USCF, you need a loaded line-up. Look at the last team we had that was built for the Cell: 2008. Konerko, Dye, Thome, Quentin, Swisher, Crede, Uribe were all guys that were going to hit 20+ HR a season and it took a Contreras injury and a TCQ injury for us to almost blow it. Thats the kind of team the Sox need to build, that is the type of team KW is trying to build.

In hindsight its easy to look at Dunn signing and Rios trade, but nobody saw this coming. "Most" saw a team with a great 1-5, a potent line up if everyone hit to their potential, a solid bullpen and overall good defense. And like I've said before, KW gave us the best team on paper. It was Ozzie's stupid managing, decisions and coaches that made us lose 82 games this season and its hard to blame KW for that.

I agree, Ozzie has made some horrible mangerial decisions. As stated above by Hawky, I'm not mad that Ozzie was fired, I just think that KW should be fired as well.

And if you really think that 2010 was the team that Ozzie wanted, with Kotsay, Wise and crew, then I don't know what to say. They were a bunch of bums and Ozzie tried to use them the best that he could.

As for your last paragraph, I completely disagree. I didn't think Dunn would be this bad, but I didn't see him being even average. And Rios being a disappointment? That isn't that far fetched. Toronto was so happy to get rid of him and there is a reason for that. And your last sentence? I completely disagree with. It was the grossly underperforming "superstars" on this team that costs the Sox 82/83 games this year, not the manager.

[Gunzaan]

Originally Posted by whitesox901

Yeah, the Dunn, Peavy and Rios contracts are heavy. But they were risks we had to take. We couldn't sit back and wait for Clayton Richard to develop if he wanted to win in 2009. Ozzie completely ruining Brian Anderson's career by not playing him regularly and giving him time to develop mixed with his hard of DeWayne Wise and Jerry Owens almost kind of forced us to look for a CF. Sure in hindsight he should have passed on Rios, but at the time he was having a down year and most figured if he could turn it around and swat 20-25 HR and play ablove average defense then the cost wouldn't be a big deal, The Dunn signing gave us a lefty power hitter that we lacked. Yeah Thome was cheaper, but also older and on the decline. Dunn was still young and had constantly hit 38+ HR a year, and this is coming off the Kotsay DH experiment. All risks that currently look like losses, but they were all moves at the time that were made to win now.

And look, I would have liked to see both go too, but I think if you look at it as I do.

Dumbass manager who takes no responsibility for anything vs the GM that every year gives us the best team in the division.

I think its safe to say they fired the right guy.

No, they weren't risks that the Sox had to take. They were risks that KW decided to make and all 3 have backfired in a HUGE way. Since all 3 of those moves have gone south, Reinsdorf wants to cut the pay roll back because the risk/reward just isn't worth it for him anymore. Good job KW!

And as previously mentioned in million other KW/Ozzie threads, the Sox wouldn't have had to wait for Clayton Richards to develop, we already had two above average pitchers who are obviously ready for the bigs: Daniel Hudson and Gio Gonzalez.

Also: Dunn isn't exactly "young." Brian Anderson would have sucked with anyone as his coach or if he was batting in between Adrian Gonzalez and Curtis Granderson. He is just horrible.

As far as "All risks that currently look like losses, but they were all moves at the time that were made to win now" I can agree with that, but if that's the case, shouldn't KW be finally held accountable for his misses as a GM?

[whitesox901]

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

I agree, Ozzie has made some horrible mangerial decisions. As stated above by Hawky, I'm not mad that Ozzie was fired, I just think that KW should be fired as well.

I mean, I would have been totally fine with KW gone. But I'm more or less on the, well if they had to chose at least it was Ozzie approach.

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

And if you really think that 2010 was the team that Ozzie wanted, with Kotsay, Wise and crew, then I don't know what to say. They were a bunch of bums and Ozzie tried to use them the best that he could.

Are you kidding me? Ozzie publicly came out and said he didn't want a DH [Thome]. 2010 was totally the team Ozzie wanted. Thats the whole point to KW getting Juan Pierre instead of going with De Aza. Not bringing back Thome after trading him away, using Kotsay, Jones and Vizquel as the DH. Ozzie loved the "Speed" on that team.

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

As for your last paragraph, I completely disagree. I didn't think Dunn would be this bad, but I didn't see him being even average. And Rios being a disappointment? That isn't that far fetched. Toronto was so happy to get rid of him and there is a reason for that. And your last sentence? I completely disagree with. It was the grossly underperforming "superstars" on this team that costs the Sox 82/83 games this year, not the manager.

From 2006-2008 Rios was a pretty solid player 296/347 averaging 20 home runs, 80 RBIs, and 20 stolen bases. Toronto was just happy to get rid of his contract. And I agree that Rios and Dunn slumping is a factor in this year, I'm not saying its all Ozzie, but lets not pretend Ozzie isn't a culprit (not saying your implying that)

[Gunzaan]

Originally Posted by whitesox901

Are you kidding me? Ozzie publicly came out and said he didn't want a DH [Thome]. 2010 was totally the team Ozzie wanted. Thats the whole point to KW getting Juan Pierre instead of going with De Aza. Not bringing back Thome after trading him away, using Kotsay, Jones and Vizquel as the DH. Ozzie loved the "Speed" on that team.

Pierre was his boy, no doubt about it. But the others, I'm sure were not exactly who Ozzie had in mind. Sure, he publically backed them up, but what else is he supposed to do? Kotsay, Wise, Jones, Vizquel... none of them have above average speed, in fact quite the opposite for all of them except Wise.

From 2006-2008 Rios was a pretty solid player 296/347 averaging 20 home runs, 80 RBIs, and 20 stolen bases. Toronto was just happy to get rid of his contract. And I agree that Rios and Dunn slumping is a factor in this year, I'm not saying its all Ozzie, but lets not pretend Ozzie isn't a culprit (not saying your implying that)

And I agree, with Rios I was more talking about the contract. Even with last year's numbers, in which he did well, he isn't worth the money that he is earning. Hell, it has been documented that KW took Rios because the other team that wanted him was the Tigers. Can you imagine how fortunate the Sox would have been if the Tigers landed him? No Victor Martinez, that's for sure.

And yes, Ozzie has been a poor manager the past 3 years and a lot of his moves can be questioned. I'm not terribly sad to see him go. I just believe that the main source of the Sox issues lies with the GM, not the previous manager. (And we haven't even gotten into how badly KW has gutted the farm system - This Sox team is on a downward trend and it looks like that might continue for the next 3+ years, atleast. Which sucks ass )

[whitesox901]

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

And as previously mentioned in million other KW/Ozzie threads, the Sox wouldn't have had to wait for Clayton Richards to develop, we already had two above average pitchers who are obviously ready for the bigs: Daniel Hudson and Gio Gonzalez.

The only reason I'm pissed we don't have Gio anymore is because Ozzie ran Swisher out of town (the guy we traded Gio for). I wanted to keep Swisher, but Ozzie said he was bad for the clubhouse. Seemed pretty popular with his teammates in Oakland and New York. As far as Hudson, whether you like the trade or not, KW as going to be damned either way. Trade him away and he's scorned for getting rid of a good player, hold on to him and KW is going to get scorned for not going out and getting somebody experienced for down the stretch. Overall I agree we should have kept Hudson, but it was a "win now" move.

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

Also: Dunn isn't exactly "young." Brian Anderson would have sucked with anyone as his coach or if he was batting in between Adrian Gonzalez and Curtis Granderson. He is just horrible.

True, young as a bad term. But Anderson could have developed into a good enough hitter. I was cool with Anderson batting .220 or whatever it was because he played good defense. Something Ozzie usually digs but wanted to start Mackowiak in centre instead.

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

No, they weren't risks that the Sox had to take. They were risks that KW decided to make and all 3 have backfired in a HUGE way. Since all 3 of those moves have gone south, Reinsdorf wants to cut the pay roll back because the risk/reward just isn't worth it for him anymore. Good job KW!

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

As far as "All risks that currently look like losses, but they were all moves at the time that were made to win now" I can agree with that, but if that's the case, shouldn't KW be finally held accountable for his misses as a GM?

True. Can't really argue these.

[HawkyTalky]

Originally Posted by whitesox901

Yeah, the Dunn, Peavy and Rios contracts are heavy. But they were risks we had to take. We couldn't sit back and wait for Clayton Richard to develop if he wanted to win in 2009. Ozzie completely ruining Brian Anderson's career by not playing him regularly and giving him time to develop mixed with his hard of DeWayne Wise and Jerry Owens almost kind of forced us to look for a CF. Sure in hindsight he should have passed on Rios, but at the time he was having a down year and most figured if he could turn it around and swat 20-25 HR and play ablove average defense then the cost wouldn't be a big deal, The Dunn signing gave us a lefty power hitter that we lacked. Yeah Thome was cheaper, but also older and on the decline. Dunn was still young and had constantly hit 38+ HR a year, and this is coming off the Kotsay DH experiment. All risks that currently look like losses, but they were all moves at the time that were made to win now.

And look, I would have liked to see both go too, but I think if you look at it as I do.

Dumbass manager who takes no responsibility for anything vs the GM that every year gives us the best team in the division.

I think its safe to say they fired the right guy.

BA SUCKED I wouldn't put the blame on the manager for the reason his career didn't pan out. If anything KW put too much faith in the guy by trading away a veteran CF to make room for him.

Peavy--HORRIBLE move....acquire a pitcher who was injured and is still NOT 100%...granted two different injuries but, it should've raised a red flag that you were acquiring an injured player to begin with.

Rios--another horrible move....let the Blue Jays GM bend him over the table so that he could supposedly block a division rival....who exactly does Alex Rios strike fear into the hearts of again? He would've and should've dragged one of our division rivals down just like he has us.

Swisher--got shafted when he traded for the guy and then shafted when he traded him away.

Edwin Jackson--See Swisher above.

Mark FUCKING Teahen--Enough Said.

Adam Dunn-- Acquired a guy for the DH spot who himself declared a lack of desire and mental toughness to play the position....LONG before KW even acquired him

I understand where KW thought he was going with some of these moves and hindsight is 20/20. But, as GM he's supposed to have a little more insight than the common fan who goes "Awesome we just plugged Adam Dunn in at DH". This isn't PS3 where you make trades the way KW does sometimes....this is real life...and he should have a better grasp on not only the fit but, the abilities of the players that he's acquiring.

Plus, you can't set your manager up with such garbage and then expect him to succeed.

It was time for both to go. But, in the last three years our GM has made moves that will handcuff the team and the next manager who's coming in for at least the next 5 years.

If you were a potential new hire as manager of the White Sox would you seriously want to work with KW?

I wouldn't because:

A) Infighting with his manager over the last few years and the tendency to publicly throw him under the bus at times.

B) Made moves that are going to continue to hurt this team's chances of winning going into the new manager's tenure.

C) Didn't build a solid farm system for a new hire to draw from and fall back on.

D) Is on thin ice himself because of A,B, and C above....may not make it past the next few years....and therefore if/when he's gone will take the new hire down with him.

KW should've been the first one to go.....not the only one....the first one.

[whitesox901]

If you remember in 2009 when BA requested a trade, Ozzie came over Kotsay. Kotsay really was one of Ozzie's boys like Pierre and Wise.

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

And I agree, with Rios I was more talking about the contract. Even with last year's numbers, in which he did well, he isn't worth the money that he is earning. Hell, it has been documented that KW took Rios because the other team that wanted him was the Tigers. Can you imagine how fortunate the Sox would have been if the Tigers landed him? No Victor Martinez, that's for sure.

Oh I know. That would have been sexy.

Originally Posted by Gunzaan

And yes, Ozzie has been a poor manager the past 3 years and a lot of his moves can be questioned. I'm not terribly sad to see him go. I just believe that the main source of the Sox issues lies with the GM, not the previous manager. (And we haven't even gotten into how badly KW has gutted the farm system - This Sox team is on a downward trend and it looks like that might continue for the next 3+ years, atleast. Which sucks ass )

Personally I'm not really a farm guy. I've always figured playing in Chicago that you can just fill your holes with money if you have the right guy to do it. Obviously sometimes the right guy isn't there; see: Minaya, Omar.