Cutler v Peyton Manning

[Leon Sandcastle]

Cutler > Manning. Why is this even a discussion???

 

[modo]

Cutler > Manning. Why is this even a discussion???

 

[onebud34]

Isn't Cutler, Manning's father?

 

[Runruffshod75]

Yep, in the same way as McCown > Cutler.

Fucker. You beat me too it.

 

[Runruffshod75]

Which is ignorant. Lovie Smith refused to change the defensive game plan, and let Ron Turner get Special person with the offense.

The thing is, I'm not even sure a defensive adjustment would have made much of a difference. When the motor of your defensive scheme is out for the season without a viable option for insurance, it can be masked against lower end competition, but once a legit contender comes along, they can & will exploit the loss of a player like Tommie Harris. Especially when a safety like Mike Brown is also injured. The Broncos were in a very similar situation in the last SB. You can not take a starting top 5 LT & starting Center out of as pass heavy offense, a good team will exploit that just like Seattle did, right from the very first snap to the end of the game. If one watches the SB Seattle directly attacked the two backups Chris Clark & Manny Ramirez at key positions, & pressured the living shit out of Manning. Where the Colts saw the Bears weakness vs the run, & ran Addai right at Tank Johnson & Ian Scott, at the time neither of which held a candle to Harris.

The Bears defense really did start to struggle for almost half of that season, especially vs the run, after Harris went down to injury. I believe the Bears were a top 3 defense vs the run with Tommie, without I believe that they finished off the regular season at around 15th in the league. The signs were there heading into the postseason. Had Lovie/Rivera pulled an extra safety into the box, then Manning would have carved up the secondary, especially with Mike Brown also injured. When I look at Mannings stat line for that game the Bears actually did fairly well at keeping him in check. The running game & the Bears turnovers on offense hurt them. But again had the Bears secondary likely would have paid for it if Lovie had adjusted & put extra bodies in the box. Especially when your dealing with an inexperienced Danieal Manning who probably couldn't have held his own in a single high, or a slow Chris Harris who was a smart safety but still not overly difficult for a pro bowl caliber QB in a top tier offense to exploit if he were on his own in a single high. Not having that 3 Technique along with no Mike Brown in defensive system that relies on the 3 Tech position to be the motor killed them & I do believe that adjust or no adjust the Bears were damned if they did & damned if they didn't against a legit AFC contender, that at the time was clearly the dominant conference. You hear coaches & former coaches of the Tampa 2 mold state time & time again, without a good 3 Tech, the scheme is dead in the water.

I thought turnovers on offense, the Benson injury, the Colts running game, with the Tommie Harris & Mike Brown injuries also being a major factor, is what killed the Bears chances of winning that game. Lovie & Rivera are two of the better defensive minds in the game right now, I love what Rivera is doing defensively in Carolina, but I do believe adjustment or not the Bears defense would have had to pay one way or another, especially when the offense started turning the ball over the way that it ended up doing.

 

[DMelt36]

The thing is, I'm not even sure a defensive adjustment would have made much of a difference. When the motor of your defensive scheme is out for the season without a viable option for insurance, it can be masked against lower end competition, but once a legit contender comes along, they can & will exploit the loss of a player like Tommie Harris. Especially when a safety like Mike Brown is also injured. The Broncos were in a very similar situation in the last SB. You can not take a starting top 5 LT & starting Center out of as pass heavy offense, a good team will exploit that just like Seattle did, right from the very first snap to the end of the game. If one watches the SB Seattle directly attacked the two backups Chris Clark & Manny Ramirez at key positions, & pressured the living shit out of Manning. Where the Colts saw the Bears weakness vs the run, & ran Addai right at Tank Johnson & Ian Scott, at the time neither of which held a candle to Harris.

The Bears defense really did start to struggle for almost half of that season, especially vs the run, after Harris went down to injury. I believe the Bears were a top 3 defense vs the run with Tommie, without I believe that they finished off the regular season at around 15th in the league. The signs were there heading into the postseason. Had Lovie/Rivera pulled an extra safety into the box, then Manning would have carved up the secondary, especially with Mike Brown also injured. When I look at Mannings stat line for that game the Bears actually did fairly well at keeping him in check. The running game & the Bears turnovers on offense hurt them. But again had the Bears secondary likely would have paid for it if Lovie had adjusted & put extra bodies in the box. Especially when your dealing with an inexperienced Danieal Manning who probably couldn't have held his own in a single high, or a slow Chris Harris who was a smart safety but still not overly difficult for a pro bowl caliber QB in a top tier offense to exploit if he were on his own in a single high. Not having that 3 Technique along with no Mike Brown in defensive system that relies on the 3 Tech position to be the motor killed them & I do believe that adjust or no adjust the Bears were damned if they did & damned if they didn't against a legit AFC contender, that at the time was clearly the dominant conference. You hear coaches & former coaches of the Tampa 2 mold state time & time again, without a good 3 Tech, the scheme is dead in the water.

I thought turnovers on offense, the Benson injury, the Colts running game, with the Tommie Harris & Mike Brown injuries also being a major factor, is what killed the Bears chances of winning that game. Lovie & Rivera are two of the better defensive minds in the game right now, I love what Rivera is doing defensively in Carolina, but I do believe adjustment or not the Bears defense would have had to pay one way or another, especially when the offense started turning the ball over the way that it ended up doing.

It's been a real long time since I'd cared to look much into that game, but I did not remember the Colts rushing for 191 yards in that contest. Wow.

While your point about Harris' absence being a big key in that game, I remember thinking the biggest difference between the Bears in that Super Bowl game as compared to their dominant performances throughout the regular season was tackling. It seemed like the first defender to the ball carrier NEVER made the tackle in that game.

 

[Runruffshod75]

It's been a real long time since I'd cared to look much into that game, but I did not remember the Colts rushing for 191 yards in that contest. Wow.

While your point about Harris' absence being a big key in that game, I remember thinking the biggest difference between the Bears in that Super Bowl game as compared to their dominant performances throughout the regular season was tackling. It seemed like the first defender to the ball carrier NEVER made the tackle in that game.

Yep. Once the Colts started to get going the Bears fell apart on both sides. Mistakes were made in the secondary from the safeties, & Bensons injury that is still questionable, the inability to stop the run, & turnovers on offense really did them in. Had the Bears used extra bodies in the box, then they would have gotten beat in the passing game. I could feel the end looming headed towards HT, & everything after halftime stunk. That's a game I'd just like to forget myself.

Even just having Mike Brown healthy would have helped to some extent. Brown could consistently hold is own in a single high, where Manning & Harris were young, inexperienced, & weren't safe bets. Had Brown been able to play healthy that would have at least allowed the Bears to put the other safety in the box more to defend the run. Part of the problems with tackling with Harris out in that scheme is that it takes the LB's away from what you want them to be able to consistently do with success in that scheme. If the front 4 is dominant & good enough to stop the run & pressure the QB, the LB's can stay clean & drop into their hooks with effectiveness. Unfortunately they had to drop against a pro bowl QB with a front 4 that lacked it's best player to get pressure in Manning's face consistently which allowed him to make completions in the underbelly & for the Colts running game to have a field day.

 

[DMelt36]

Yep. Once the Colts started to get going the Bears fell apart on both sides. Mistakes were made in the secondary from the safeties, & Bensons injury that is still questionable, the inability to stop the run, & turnovers on offense really did them in. Had the Bears used extra bodies in the box, then they would have gotten beat in the passing game. I could feel the end looming headed towards HT, & everything after halftime stunk. That's a game I'd just like to forget myself.

Heh. Me too. I was in college at the time about 25 miles east of Indianapolis, too. Came home for the game but had to go back to Colts country after that game.

I felt really good about that game after Grossman's TD pass to Moose in the first quarter, largely because of the 52-yard run that Jones had in that drive which I believe was their longest run play of the season. Thought they'd run the ball right down the Colts throats. This was the same Indianapolis defense that I watched give up 300+ rushing yards to the Fred Taylor/MJD near the end of the regular season. I knew they were better with Bob Sanders back in the lineup but I thought the Bears fantastic run game would still take over the game. Unfortunately they weren't given a chance.

Benson's fumble felt like the beginning of the downfall, IIRC.

 

[Runruffshod75]

Heh. Me too. I was in college at the time about 25 miles east of Indianapolis, too. Came home for the game but had to go back to Colts country after that game.

I felt really good about that game after Grossman's TD pass to Moose in the first quarter, largely because of the 52-yard run that Jones had in that drive which I believe was their longest run play of the season. Thought they'd run the ball right down the Colts throats. This was the same Indianapolis defense that I watched give up 300+ rushing yards to the Fred Taylor/MJD near the end of the regular season. I knew they were better with Bob Sanders back in the lineup but I thought the Bears fantastic run game would still take over the game. Unfortunately they weren't given a chance.

Benson's fumble felt like the beginning of the downfall, IIRC.

Yep. Looking back on that play after Hesters return, makes think of how I almost but not quit got a false sense of hope that the Bears had a legit chance. Heading into that game I remember wanting them to win that one so bad, & during the game hoping they could have gotten another miracle take away, & Hester return to save their asses, but in the back of my mind I new better.

 

[DaaBears]

That game was on Ron Turner, and I actually like him as an OC. He came in with a game plan, and refused to abandon it. We just kept passing and passing, when we were runniing just fine. The weather was horrible, the Colts turned to the run, we abandoned the run (which was working). It sucked not having Harris and Brown, and I think that game could have been different had we stayed with pounding the ball, it was hard to make tackles in that weather.

 

[Runruffshod75]

That game was on Ron Turner, and I actually like him as an OC. He came in with a game plan, and refused to abandon it. We just kept passing and passing, when we were runniing just fine. The weather was horrible, the Colts turned to the run, we abandoned the run (which was working). It sucked not having Harris and Brown, and I think that game could have been different had we stayed with pounding the ball, it was hard to make tackles in that weather.

Yep. To this day I don't understand why they abandoned the run, especially since Benson really hadn't made much a contribution in that game before his injury anyway. Between the Bears abandoning the run in that game after Benson went down & letting Jones walk the following year I'm guessing the coaching staff didn't see Jones as the featured back. Which is baffling to me because I thought he was a very good & capable HB. Oh well, spilled milk.

 

[DaaBears]

Yep. To this day I don't understand why they abandoned the run, especially since Benson really hadn't made much a contribution in that game before his injury anyway. Between the Bears abandoning the run in that game after Benson went down & letting Jones walk the following year I'm guessing the coaching staff didn't see Jones as the featured back. Which is baffling to me because I thought he was a very good & capable HB. Oh well, spilled milk.

Yes, and then to add to the comedy, TJ went to the Jets. And the Jets had their best year, leading the AFC in rushing with him. So what did they do next, get rid of him, and then their rushing game went to hell. TJ never got the respect that he deserved, IMO.

 

[DMelt36]

Yes, and then to add to the comedy, TJ went to the Jets. And the Jets had their best year, leading the AFC in rushing with him. So what did they do next, get rid of him, and then their rushing game went to hell. TJ never got the respect that he deserved, IMO.

Oh definitely. I thought Thomas Jones was a very good (perhaps not great, but still very good) RB in the NFL. I hated the Benson pick because I thought TJ could handle the load and all he needed was a guy like the original AP to give him a breather every now and then.

Jones was just unfortunate that he spent his first three seasons in football purgatory in Arizona. But he ripped off five straight 1,000 yard seasons while in Chicago and later New York. He cracked the 10,000 rushing yard plateau before he retired, something only 28 guys have done in NFL history.

 

[Runruffshod75]

Yes, and then to add to the comedy, TJ went to the Jets. And the Jets had their best year, leading the AFC in rushing with him. So what did they do next, get rid of him, and then their rushing game went to hell. TJ never got the respect that he deserved, IMO.

I never understood that either. To me he was one of the most unappreciated players I can remember. The one thing that comes to mind though is that those were the years that the NFL was starting to gravitate towards being a pass heavy league with a number of franchises that almost seemed to look at HB's like cockroaches, it just isn't unheard of to get 1000 yard HB's after the first round to mid late rounds, & FA also. A lot of available starting caliber HB's get similar production. It just doesn't seem to matter to GM's if a HB is drafted in the first, fourth, or signed in FA anymore as much as it used to when it was the position teams built around on offense outside of QB. A number of them end up able to give a team the 1000 yards per season desired from a starting HB nowadays. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with why Jones seemed to go overlooked as he seemed to but I'm not sure of what other reasons there really were. If I remember correctly he was a well liked guy in the Bears locker room, so I don't believe that was the case. Benson was decent but not dominating the HB competition & the locker room hated him, so keeping Jones around would have still been justifiable. I never got it either.