Doug Williams comment about QBs and race

[run and shoot]

I don't get your point at all with all this. Peterman and T. Jackson aren't even in the same draft class.

Are you implying BUF is racist for signing T. Jackson in UDFA rather than drafting him?

Or are you implying that no one anywhere could have "fallen" for Peterman's suckage and they did simply because he was white?

Honestly asking, because I have lost track of your point altogether and - unlike remy - I will not ASSUME your point from one line in one post and debate from there in the most tedious of manner.

Thanks.

I don't get your point at all with all this. Peterman and T. Jackson aren't even in the same draft class.

I was doing a combo of piggy-backing off the thread topic while also showing how a mediocre Qb like Peterman can get a back-up shot with Oakland.

Are you implying BUF is racist for signing T. Jackson in UDFA rather than drafting him?

No....for some reason everybody let him go as a UDFA . But a guy like Easton Stick, North Dakota State, gets drafted in the 5th round.

Or are you implying that no one anywhere could have "fallen" for Peterman's suckage

good point.

 

[FirstTimer]

Not sure what you are talking about. I was referring to instances where they don't get a chance to show what they can do at QB because they are asked to change positions.

So guys like Michael Robinson, Joshua Cribbs, Antwaan Randle-El, Ronald Curry, etc. Guys who were drafted with the intent of changing positions because as I said NFL teams were not immediately convinced they could handle QB. The point being that if they were not so athletic, they would probably fight more to stay a QB as they wouldn't have another avenue to the NFL. But if you are going to go undrafted as QB vs be a mid to late round pick at another position then you probably make that switch instead of trying to prove NFL teams wrong about your ability to play QB.

These guys were all terrible college QB's(relative to a conversation about the draft). Your anecdotal examples are predictably dog shit.
Robinson was a career 49% passer with a 23:21 TD:INT ratio at Penn St.
Cribbs was a career 54% passer with a 45:34 TD:INT ratio
Curry was a career 49% passer with a 28:35 TD:INT ratio(?!)
Randle-El(the best QB on this list) was a career 49% passer with a 42:37 TD:INT ratio.

NONE of these players threw for more than 2500 yards in a season in college. None of them had prototypical NFL QB size. They didn't check any boxes. These guys couldn't even handle the aspects of being a highly efficient and effective QB at the college level in regards to what the NFL demands of it's QB's. Why in God's name would an NFL team roll the dice on them being able to do it in the pro's when there was no evidence showing they could? Why would these guys fight to stay at QB in the NFL? What would their argument be to do so?

"NFL teams were not immediately convinced they could handle QB"...No kidding...that's because their collegiate body of work proved it.

At least guys like Vick, VY, Jamarcus Russel etc lead the NCAA in passing efficiency or put up gawdy numbers or looked the part/had elite QB tools.

 

[run and shoot]

These guys were all terrible college QB's(relative to a conversation about the draft). Your anecdotal examples are predictably dog shit.
Robinson was a career 49% passer with a 23:21 TD:INT ratio at Penn St.
Cribbs was a career 54% passer with a 45:34 TD:INT ratio
Curry was a career 49% passer with a 28:35 TD:INT ratio(?!)
Randle-El was a career 49% passer with a 42:37 TD:INT ratio.

NONE of these players threw for more than 2500 yards in a season in college. None of them had prototypical NFL QB size. They didn't check any boxes. These guys couldn't even handle the aspects of being a highly efficient and effective QB at the college level in regards to what the NFL demands of it's QB's. Why in God's name would an NFL team roll the dice on them being able to do it in the pro's when there was no evidence showing they could? Why would these guys fight to stay at QB in the NFL? What would their argument be to do so?

"NFL teams were not immediately convinced they could handle QB"...No kidding...that's because their collegiate body of work proved it.

At least guys like Vick, VY, Jamarcus Russel etc lead the NCAA in passing efficiency or put up gawdy numbers or looked the part/had elite QB tools.

Robinson was a career 49% passer with a 23:21 TD:INT ratio at Penn St.
Cribbs was a career 54% passer with a 45:34 TD:INT ratio
Curry was a career 49% passer with a 28:35 TD:INT ratio(?!)
Randle-El was a career 49% passer with a 42:37 TD:INT ratio.

Just to add......
I doubt any of these guys believed in their skill set as Qb's on the next level, which is why they didn't fight making the change.

 

[remydat]

These guys were all terrible college QB's(relative to a conversation about the draft). Your anecdotal examples are predictably dog shit.
Robinson was a career 49% passer with a 23:21 TD:INT ratio at Penn St.
Cribbs was a career 54% passer with a 45:34 TD:INT ratio
Curry was a career 49% passer with a 28:35 TD:INT ratio(?!)
Randle-El(the best QB on this list) was a career 49% passer with a 42:37 TD:INT ratio.

NONE of these players threw for more than 2500 yards in a season in college. None of them had prototypical NFL QB size. They didn't check any boxes. These guys couldn't even handle the aspects of being a highly efficient and effective QB at the college level in regards to what the NFL demands of it's QB's. Why in God's name would an NFL team roll the dice on them being able to do it in the pro's when there was no evidence showing they could? Why would these guys fight to stay at QB in the NFL? What would their argument be to do so?

"NFL teams were not immediately convinced they could handle QB"...No kidding...that's because their collegiate body of work proved it.

At least guys like Vick, VY, Jamarcus Russel etc lead the NCAA in passing efficiency or put up gawdy numbers or looked the part/had elite QB tools.

Never said they could handle QB or that the NFL should roll the dice hence the comment about them going undrafted as a QB. The point was it was not because of race.

It was more to contrast to a guy like Jake Delhomme who didnt light it up in college and went the NFL Europe route to get to the NFL. He stuck with it because he had no other choice if he wanted to play in NFL

Point was non-elite QB prospects with athleticism more likely change positions so not necessarily a racial thing.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

The point being that if they were not so athletic, they would probably fight more to stay a QB as they wouldn't have another avenue to the NFL.

You have said a lot of dumb things, particularly in this thread alone, that covered a wide range of football topics. I don't want to mindlessly say "And this one takes the cake", but it IS up there in terms of retardation. Even if we completely disregard how this comment is only tangentially related to your original posting, it is still an incredible 'stand alone' thought.

It would be like saying "Matt Howard was a 6-8 center at Butler and was slower than molasses, and since he has no athleticism he would probably 'fight more' to stay a C, as he wouldn't have the option of playing small forward in the NBA and guarding Durant and Lebron." The obvious conclusion to draw is that the NBA in general is racist and NBA coaches have no idea what they are doing.

 

[remydat]

You have said a lot of dumb things, particularly in this thread alone, that covered a wide range of football topics. I don't want to mindlessly say "And this one takes the cake", but it IS up there in terms of retardation. Even if we completely disregard how this comment is only tangentially related to your original posting, it is still an incredible 'stand alone' thought.

It would be like saying "Matt Howard was a 6-8 center at Butler and was slower than molasses, and since he has no athleticism he would probably 'fight more' to stay a C, as he wouldn't have the option of playing small forward in the NBA and guarding Durant and Lebron." The obvious conclusion to draw is that the NBA in general is racist and NBA coaches have no idea what they are doing.

Here was the original post.

Not sure it is a racial thing so much as it is an athleticism thing. It just so happens that black QBs are more athletic on average than their white counterparts so likely asked to move more often than a white QB. Although we saw this with Tebow where some thought he fit better at FB or TE.

Not sure how that is tangential. I am clearly saying not sure its a racial thing. So your NBA example is dumb as fuck. They arent being asked to move because of race or coaches not knowing what they are doing. They are being asked to move because they have the ability to make it someplace else and their ability to play QB is in doubt. The whole point was that I don't think what Williams observed was the result of race.

 

[FirstTimer]

Here was the original post.



Not sure how that is tangential. I am clearly saying not sure its a racial thing. So your NBA example is dumb as fuck. They arent being asked to move because of race or coaches not knowing what they are doing. They are being asked to move because they have the ability to make it someplace else and their ability to play QB is in doubt.

They wouldn't be "fighting to stay at QB" in the NFL if they weren't athletic because they SUCKED at it in college. They wouldn't even be in the NFL to have the fight to stay at QB to begin with. QB was never an option for them in the NFL based on their abysmal skill set for the position coming into the league. You acting as though it was a choice of theirs and they had any REAL say in the matter is laughable. What's Ronald Curry's counterargument to "You kind of sucked as a QB in college, your only shot is WR"? Of course Curry et al was agreeable/willing to change positions to play in the NFL. It was their only choice.

 

[remydat]

They wouldn't be "fighting to stay at QB" in the NFL if they weren't athletic because they SUCKED at it in college. They wouldn't even be in the NFL to have the fight to stay at QB to begin with. QB was never an option for them in the NFL based on their abysmal skill set for the position coming into the league. You acting as though it was a choice of theirs and they had any REAL say in the matter is laughable. What's Ronald Curry's counterargument to "You kind of sucked as a QB in college, your only shot is WR"? Of course Curry et all was agreeable/willing to change positions to play in the NFL. It was their only choice.

They have the choice to go the route Delhomme did. Less likely to take that choice because they can make it at another position potentially.

In any event, Rory's conclusions here are dumb. He provided an example that suggests I was making it about racism when that is the exact opposite of what I was suggesting.

 

[FirstTimer]

They have the choice to go the route Delhomme did. Less likely to take that choice because they can make it at another position potentially.

Your complete lack of knowledge about all things football is astounding....NFL Europe rosters were made up of players assigned to that developmental league by the teams themselves. Delhomme was assigned to NFL Europe. On top of this your comparison to Delhomme is laughable. Delhomme was signed as an UDFA as a QB, he was a highly successful passer in college given the era, and the Saints wanted to develop him as a QB as he showed promise at the position while in school. (Some statistical context here; In 1996 Delhomme attempted the 9th most passes in the NCAA. No other QB you mentioned was higher than 4th in his own conference in pass attempts)

Curry et al couldn't just randomly decide to go to NFL Europe if they wanted to. The NFL controlled the rosters/players assigned to the NFL Europe at that time. It wasn't the AAF.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Here was the original post.

Nope. HERE is the original post:

I think anecdotally there is some truth to that because in a lot of cases, that black QB is athletic enough to play another position so more than likely if the coaching staff isn't immediately convinced the dude is a QB, they are likely to ask him to change positions to get that athleticism on the field.

Dripping with "race angles"...

 

[remydat]

Your complete lack of knowledge about all things football is astounding....NFL Europe rosters were made up of players assigned to that developmental league by the teams themselves. Delhomme was assigned to NFL Europe. On top of this your comparison to Delhomme is laughable. Delhomme was signed as an UDFA as a QB, he was a highly successful passer in college given the era, and the Saints wanted to develop him as a QB as he showed promise at the position while in school. (Some statistical context here; In 1996 Delhomme attempted the 9th most passes in the NCAA. No other QB you mentioned was higher than 4th in his own conference in pass attempts)

Curry et al couldn't just randomly decide to go to NFL Europe if they wanted to. The NFL controlled the rosters/players assigned to the NFL Europe at that time. It wasn't the AAF.

They could decide to go to the CFL/AFL or some other developmental league. Delhomme was a 53% passer in college.

 

[FirstTimer]

Nope. HERE is the original post:

Yep. Spot on. Ronald Curry moving to WR had more to do with his athleticism than it did with his inability to throw for more than 2500 yards in a season or have a positive career TD:INT ratio.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

They wouldn't be "fighting to stay at QB" in the NFL if they weren't athletic because they SUCKED at it in college. They wouldn't even be in the NFL to have the fight to stay at QB to begin with. QB was never an option for them in the NFL based on their abysmal skill set for the position coming into the league. You acting as though it was a choice of theirs and they had any REAL say in the matter is laughable. What's Ronald Curry's counterargument to "You kind of sucked as a QB in college, your only shot is WR"? Of course Curry et al was agreeable/willing to change positions to play in the NFL. It was their only choice.

Forget about Curry's "counterargument"...what is the 'solution' that remydat is proposing? That the Raiders should either 1) simply play Curry at QB or 2) NOT play Curry at any position other than QB?

I'm not understanding ANY aspect of what remydat is talking about...what exactly is the 'problem'? where is the injustice/racism? where is the error in judgement? what is the 'solution'?

 

[FirstTimer]

They could decide to go to the CFL/AFL or some other developmental league. Delhomme was a 53% passer in college.

Thanks for the white flag on you not knowing how NFL Europe worked. LOL at calling the CFL or AFL "developmental leagues" for the NFL. Jesus. Delhomme also threw for something like the 20th most passing yards in NCAA history by the time he left school. His freshman or sophomore year he was one of the most efficient passers in the country. His college yardage production was 100% passing. I like your use of Delhomme's completion percentage, ignoring that it tops everyone else on your list sans Josh Cribbs, who still trailed Delhomme in passing efficiency, and threw for nearly 2200 less yards in his career. But hey, your back pedaling here is amazingly bad. So...I'm just going to start deleting your responses as you have no argument left.

 

[remydat]

Yep. Spot on. Ronald Curry moving to WR had more to do with his athleticism than it did with his inability to throw for more than 2500 yards in a season or have a positive career TD:INT ratio.

Right because not throwing for 2500 yards means he can play WR. He moved to WR because he had the athleticism to do so.

Forget about Curry's "counterargument"...what is the 'solution' that remydat is proposing? That the Raiders should either 1) simply play Curry at QB or 2) NOT play Curry at any position other than QB?

I'm not understanding ANY aspect of what remydat is talking about...what exactly is the 'problem'? where is the injustice/racism? where is the error in judgement? what is the 'solution'?

Again genius, there is no injustice/racism as I said it was not a racial thing.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Not sure how you can read the bold and claim race angles. The whole point is that it is about athleticism and their ability to play other positions not race. It helps when you read the entire post. Not sure how you get race from me talking about athleticism being the factor here.

First, overall you are a good poster, but telling me that I "can't read" is a bit much.

Second, again, How often does a team draft a black QB with the intention on playing him at QB, but instead says "you know what? Playing QB isn't that important in the overall scheme of things, and this guy is so athletic he can play any number of positions at the NFL level. Lets just throw in the towel on this guy being our QB and play him on kick coverage."

Maybe Terrelle Pryor with the Raiders? Maybe? The only guy I can think of definitively is Kordell Stewart...and the 'irony' (since there always is an ironic element to your postings) is that Stewart eventually did become the Steelers full-time starter at QB anyways.

Since you said "anecdotally", please list the anecdotal occurrences that you were thinking of when you made the post. Thanks.

 

[FirstTimer]

Right because not throwing for 2500 yards means he can play WR. He moved to WR because he had the athleticism to do so.

Would you prefer I use his sub 50% passing completion? Also you ignore the negative TD;INT ratio.

*crack knuckles*

Post deleting begins...

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Right because not throwing for 2500 yards means he can play WR. He moved to WR because he had the athleticism to do so.


Again genius, there is no injustice/racism as I said it was not a racial thing.

That addresses absolutely nothing. Again, in the Curry situation, what should the Raiders have done differently? Where was the error in judgement? Where was the injustice/racism? Were they wrong to play Curry at WR? If not, then what is your point with any of this? If so, then why?

 

[remydat]

First, overall you are a good poster, but telling me that I "can't read" is a bit much.

Second, again, How often does a team draft a black QB with the intention on playing him at QB, but instead says "you know what? Playing QB isn't that important in the overall scheme of things, and this guy is so athletic he can play any number of positions at the NFL level. Lets just throw in the towel on this guy being our QB and play him on kick coverage."

Maybe Terrelle Pryor with the Raiders? Maybe? The only guy I can think of definitively is Kordell Stewart...and the 'irony' (since there always is an ironic element to your postings) is that Stewart eventually did become the Steelers full-time starter at QB anyways.

Since you said "anecdotally", please list the anecdotal occurrences that you were thinking of when you made the post. Thanks.

You are claiming I attributed it to race or injustice when I clearly did not. So yes you are not reading it right. I specifically said it is not a racial thing.

Second, I never said a team drafts a black QB with the intention of playing him at QB. Again that is you misreading the comment.

 

[remydat]

That addresses absolutely nothing. Again, in the Curry situation, what should the Raiders have done differently? Where was the error in judgement? Where was the injustice/racism? Were they wrong to play Curry at WR? If not, then what is your point with any of this? If so, then why?

Let's try this one more time.

1. Raiders should not have done anything differently.

2. There was no error in judgement.

3. There was no injustice/racism.

4. No they were not wrong to play Curry at WR.

5. My point was if Curry were not able to play WR, he perhaps continues to try and make it as a QB and develops his game further. He didn't do that because he could play WR. The point was never that this was a racial thing. Hence why I noted Tebow was asked to play FB or TE because he had the athletic ability. Edelman also was a QB at one time. You guys are assuming it was a comment about racism when it was a comment about opportunity. That opportunity stems from their athleticism. It just so happens that black QBs tend to be more athletic so more of them are likely to give up on playing QB sooner because they are asked to play another position.