Doug Williams comment about QBs and race

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

my reason for putting up the placekicking article was clearly stated- nepotism and money is a big deciding factor.

No, it's not. Nepotism and money is a factor in who gets trained well without needing to do pre-requisite research. Neither nepotism nor money stops anyone from researching the fundamentals of kicking and practicing the technique and trying out for HS PK or NCAA PK.

My fix for the situation is clearly stated- someone (williams would be a good start) needs to start a clinic/foundation to identify and support the growth of disadvantaged possible greats in a position that more often than not requires a great deal of money/time/support to fully develop.

Pretty sure that's not a fix, but an avenue to determine if there even is a problem or not. I find it astonishing that football coaches, ADs and GMs from HS to NCAA to NFL are not doing the best job at locating and developing QB talent considering their livelihoods are on the line. You can keep asserting this is somehow true though. I won't really care moving forward ... unless you have evidence showing the missed potential greats that slip through the collective systems of scouting, recruiting, coaching and developing of all the levels of football in America.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

I would want to see the 'camp' angle first. Is it really that exclusive? I thought the only reason college coaches even offered camps was to invite potential recruits and evaluate/impress them. I didn't really think money was a factor in any of it. It seems like a lot of colleges recruit/play black QBs. JMO

Starting with youth, camps are pretty exclusive. Those are the private ones Airtime is talking about. Colleges can run open invitationals as well as the walk-on tryouts.

If Doug Williams wants to run a free, not-for-profit camp to find all the missing black QBs I am sure he would have no shortage of dreamers lined up to show they can do it. I have no idea how he could fund it though. Football coaching is not free so he would have to raise grants or something.

However, let's presume he can't or it just isn't enough to undo the "problem".

I would contend the "problem" is still non-existent due to the system outside of camps set up in schools ..

using my purely anecdotal evidence here ... if a young gun is up and coming middle school level, the middle school coach tells the high school coach and they pool their resources and contacts to develop at a higher level. They can then use contacts from HS AD to NCAA AD and arrange scouting or interviews if the scout tells the NCAA AD good things.

Let's say however that the NCAA AD is somehow blind to the obvious potential greatness in our hypothetical young gun.

There is then the All-Star Game where NCAA scouts automatically attend and other schools where the coach may not have a contact will get a chance to see the young gun showcased as well as the year's film (up to 4 years) on our young gun.

The only way for an "unfairness factor" is if there is a young gun that plays in practice and is way more gifted than the "pre-anointed starter" but somehow mysteriously the coaches are oblivious.

But the players and parents of players usually unveil that controversy FAST and it spills over into the HS football pages of FB, Twitter etc and the coaches tend to be under fire ... because this whole enterprise is ultimately merit-based right down to the core.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Starting with youth, camps are pretty exclusive. Those are the private ones Airtime is talking about.

Youth camps affecting NFL backup QB jobs? Quite the leap. Also, if the youth camps are so exclusive and only a small portion of potential QBs are affected, then why would it be a problem? The playing field would still be pretty level, so to speak.

But I am just speaking anecdotally here.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

Youth camps affecting NFL backup QB jobs? Quite the leap.

Indeed it is. Talk to airtime about that leap. I didn't make the connection between football camps and a negative effect to NFL opportunities..

Also, if the youth camps are so exclusive and only a small portion of potential QBs are affected, then why would it be a problem? The playing field would still be pretty level, so to speak

Qft

But I am just speaking anecdotally here.

Touche?

 

[remydat]

I know reading material for the actual point of what the poster is saying eludes you as you scan feverishly looking for a morsel of debateable material anywhere at all costs, but I was not arguing for Mitch over Williams, rather stating that airtime's criteria for what constitutes nepotism or favoritism for one guy over another is awful subjective as some writers wanted Mitch to be given the keys earlier,

Disagree with them? Take it up with them. I have zero idea if it was true and don't even care because merit-based performance is the only factor that matters.

To airtime's post, if any coach starts anyone at any position without doing due diligence into merit-based performance, then they will not last at any level.

This is what you said.

You CAn find some coaches blindly holding on to a lower talent QB (UNC coach held onto starting Marquise Williams too long over Mitch Trubisky in the view of many UNC sportswriters),

The bold is your words not the UNC sportswriters and then you offered up Mitch and Williams as an example. I went to UNC and keep up with the new there. The reason he started Williams was because of his experience and had nothing to do with holding blinding onto a lower talent QB. Nor do I recall many sportswriters claiming that. They may have thought Mitch should start but they did not accuse Fedora of blindly holding onto to a QB who lead them to the ACC championship that year.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

This is what you said.

You CAn find some coaches blindly holding on to a lower talent QB (UNC coach held onto starting Marquise Williams too long over Mitch Trubisky [[[in the view of many UNC sportswriters]]]]),

The bold is your words not the UNC sportswriters and then you offered up Mitch and Williams as an example. I went to UNC and keep up with the new there. The reason he started Williams was because of his experience and had nothing to do with holding blinding onto a lower talent QB. Nor do I recall many sportswriters claiming that. They may have thought Mitch should start but they did not accuse Fedora of blindly holding onto to a QB who lead them to the ACC championship that year.

You missed "in the view of many UNC sportswriters."

Oops.

 

[remydat]

I like the passing efficiency stats from 2015...you know, the year when they were both on the team...

Williams = 61%, 8.6 YPA, 150.4 rating

Trubisky = 85% (!!), 11.8 YPA, 226.4 rating

So, one QB has a 24% higher completion rate, averages more than 3 yards per attempt, and has a higher rating by over 75 points. Really not that far off, though. To get an NFL equivalent on those numerical differences, you'd have to compare Nathan Peterman's career to Dan Marino's 1984 season.

What are you talking about? I was comparing Williams 2015 season to Trubisky's 2016 season and including passing and rushing not just passing. I did not compare to Trubs 2015 season as he only had 47 passing attempts so it is a small sample and not represenative as evidence by him not coming close to those numbers in a full season. Hence why I referenced them both having 4000k passing and rushing yards combined and around 37 TDs combined. That was obviously a comparison to they years they were both full starters.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

You CAn find some coaches blindly holding on to a lower talent QB (UNC coach held onto starting Marquise Williams too long over Mitch Trubisky in the view of many UNC sportswriters),

The bold is your words not the UNC sportswriters

Very good remy. The bold is my "words" (sic); now put it together and you will discover I paraphrased the "view of many UNC sportswriters".

 

[remydat]

You missed "in the view of many UNC sportswriters."

Oops.

You CAn find some coaches blindly holding on to a lower talent QB (UNC coach held onto starting Marquise Williams too long over Mitch Trubisky [[[in the view of many UNC sportswriters]]]]),

No I didn't. The bolded is your words not the sports writers. You are claiming that some coaches blindly hold on to a lower talent QB. You then offer up Willaims over Trubs as an example of this based on what sportswriters said. The problem here is that the UNC sportswriters never suggested going with Williams was Fedora blindly holding onto a lower talent QB. Fedora held on to Williams because Williams was winning and had more experience and his overall numbers were good. He simply had a bad game here or there but was largely good for most of the year. So the issue here is you making an incorrect link between the bold and what UNC sportswriters said. There was nothing blind about Fedora's decision.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

You CAn find some coaches blindly holding on to a lower talent QB (UNC coach held onto starting Marquise Williams too long over Mitch Trubisky [[[in the view of many UNC sportswriters]]]]),

No I didn't. The bolded is your words not the sports writers. You are claiming that some coaches blindly hold on to a lower talent QB. You then offer up Willaims over Trubs as an example of this based on what sportswriters said. The problem here is that the UNC sportswriters never suggested going with Williams was Fedora blindly holding onto a lower talent QB. Fedora held on to Williams because Williams was winning and had more experience and his overall numbers were good. He simply had a bad game here or there but was largely good for most of the year. So the issue here is you making an incorrect link between the bold and what UNC sportswriters said. There was nothing blind about Fedora's decision.

Ah I see. He wasn't "blindly holding onto lower talent"; he held on to Williams because Williams was winning and had more experience and his overall numbers were good. He simply had a bad game here or there but was largely good for most of the year ... whereas the writers felt Mitch would have had fewer bad games here or there. (due to something other than talent gap I guess?)

It is all so clear now. And it wasn't "blindly" holding on to Williams when he knew the objections but *chose to do what he thought was best anyway* despite the other views. Got ya.

Thanks for the correction! That might have been a Disastrous Misunderstanding of Epic Proportions unless you came in like the swashbuckling CCS vocabulary hero you are!

 

[remydat]

Ah I see. He wasn't "blindly holding onto lower talent"; he held on to Williams because Williams was winning and had more experience and his overall numbers were good. He simply had a bad game here or there but was largely good for most of the year ... whereas the writers felt Mitch would have had fewer bad games here or there.

It is all so clear now. And it wasn't "blindly" holding on to Williams when he knew the objections but *chose to do what he thought was best anyway* despite the other views. Got ya.

Thanks for the correction! That might have been a Disastrous Misunderstanding of Epic Proportions unless you came in like the swashbuckling CCS vocabulary hero you are!

So is it your argument that Nagy should listen to sportswriters or CCS when Mitch had a bad game despite the fact that overall he played well?

No it was not blind at all. Willaims threw for 3072 yards and rushed for 948. He accounted for 24 TDs passing and 13 TDs rushing so combined 37 TDs. I am not sure why you think sticking with a guy that produced 4000k yards and 37 TDs and helped UNC win 11 games in a row warrants sitting him in favor of Mitch simply because a few sportswriters said some shit to sell papers.

Mitch looked good in garbage time in 2015 and some fans got all giddy. He only had one game where he threw more than 7 times and that was against Delaware when he replaced Williams and had 4 TDs of his total 6 for the year. Delaware was 4-7 that year.

And the idea he would have fewer bad games is also not supported by the fact the following year he played in a critical role in all 5 of their losses. Trubs was a talented QB whose inexperience was always a concern. That is why he didn't start in college right away and that is why he had some struggles early in the NFL. He needed game experience and UNC couldn't risk starting him when they were vying for an ACC title and a berth in the college playoffs if they had beat Clemson in ACC championship when they already had a proven and battled tested QB who had put up great numbers. Williams had just come off of 3,800 yards and 34 TDs and bettered it in 2015 so not sure what you are talking about blindly. Nothing blind with going with a guy putting up those numbers.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

Oh my God you dense idiot.

I was not arguing Mitch over Williams but pointing how subjective airtime's criteria over unfairness re: coaches' decisions and players not getting a chance.

I simply reached for a QB controversy I heard about that inverted the narrative of inequality that he seems to think exists nationwide. I had no "dog" in the Mitch - Marquese debate at all. If I had any idea you would be triggered by UNC football I would have dropped that line altogether because you are simply the most stupidly tiresome poster.

Find somewhere else to satisfy your debate boner. Maybe Rory will pick up on that whole Mitch-Marquese debate and give you what you live for.

 

[Sculpt]

FFS, your cited articles even acknowledge tendencies or frequencies for certain races, as I had said and you had a shit fit , you just want to use the word "ancestry" instead of race. If that makes you feel more enlightened, great. It's like when they stopped using the word suspect and started calling them a person of interest. Same fucking difference just more PC.

Does it seriously make you feel better, smarter, or more enlightened to say persons of African ancestry tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber then those of European ancestry rather than blacks tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber then whites?

With the stigma of interracial couples fading, most the identifiable traits between races will become mostly homogeneous, at least in the US and other diverse countries in 5-10 more generations.

OOPS!!

I meant to say,with the stigma of interancestral couples fading, most the identifiable traits between ancestries will become mostly homogeneous, at least in the US and other diverse countries in 5-10 more generations.

I get what you're saying, iueyedoc. But you do understand there is a widespread paradyn of thinking that there's a real thing called "race", that would be comparable to one race coming from an entirely different group of primates. We know, now, for a fact, this is incorrect. On the contrary, the human species is one family, to which one could make the illustration that a person from Finland can mate with a person from Papua New Guinea with no biological hiderance. It's all a billion different family lines. You act like there's no need to point this out.

 

[run and shoot]

I think saying Evans had "some success" is a stretch, and I'm not sure where you got your yards per pass play data. Evans inherited a team that went to the postseason 2 of the last 3 years, and led them to records of 7-9 and 6-10. In 1980, the Bears were tied for 21st in pass yards per play with a dismal 5.5 clip. In 1981, the Bears were 28th (aka last place) in pass yards per play with an astoundingly bad 4.7 average.

My point was that Evans wasn't even good in college. It has nothing to do with bad coaching or not applying himself...he just wasn't very good to begin with.

My point was that Evans wasn't even good in college.

Did he win?
---------------

I'm not saying Evans great or even good. I'm saying he had some success. I said earlier he wouldn't commit to being a student of the game. I met him once. He was built like Arnold S. Evans had great physical skill and relied on it to much.
-------------
Here are some games where he showed some promise:

Vince Evans threw two touchdown passes to James Scott... - UPI.com
35-21 victory Sunday over the Washington Redskins.

December 7th 1980 - Chicago 61, Green Bay 7 - PackersHistory.net

Vince Evans completed 18 of 22 passes for 316 yards and three ... touchdowns with passes of 52 yards to Watts and 36 yards to James Scott.

------------
Washington Redskins at Chicago Bears - November 9th, 1980 | Pro ...

Evans had 3 Td's in this game.

 

[run and shoot]

I think it starts in junior high and high school, the majority of black kids are faster and so their coaches use them to run more, so they are more accustomed to the spread style offense. In high school and junior high a fast running QB will shred a defense. As the competition gets better the running QBs skills are diminished due to the talent level being more on par with his own. Once he hits the NFL because of the tendency to run is the one most used the passing aspect is lacking. On the other hand the majority of white QBs have had to use their arm and accuracy to beat the defense so when they get to higher levels of play they transition into the NFL style passing more smoothly. I also believe that it’s a social economic thing, more white parents have the means to send their kids to camps and hire trainers, so they develop pro skills. There is always exceptions but from what I’ve seen, this seems to be the norm.

I think it starts in junior high and high school, the majority of black kids are faster and so their coaches use them to run more, so they are more accustomed to the spread style offense. In high school and junior high a fast running QB will shred a defense.

Not necessarily true

Click this link..... it leads to post #113

Doug Williams comment about QBs and race

Seems like lots of black QBs are recruited to college to play QB...at least that's how it happens in my NCAA 07 dynasty mode. I wouldnt know about that... what I do know is that it is ridiculous how many family ties there are in the NFL. In a country with 327 million people, a league with...

www.chicitysports.com

 

[KittiesKorner]

run and shoot, I was on your side, even with your horrific misunderstanding and misapplication of forum software, until you started ranting against immigrants in the B&I forum.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

Yeah I pointed it out because it was a poor example in your debate with airtime. You asked how you prove malicious intent vs incompetence when your example doesn't prove either scenario. Williams started for very good reasons. Perhaps you should find a better example to prove your point was what I was getting at because it doesn't fit any of the scenarios you presented.

If you are debating with someone and you offer the worse possible example to prove your point, it makes your argument seem dumb. It is also ironic that your example involves a white guy with a much worse resume being lobbied for over the black guy who had earned the right to start based on his great year the year before and validated that decision by leading his team to one of the best records in their history.

I just love the logic of you trying to disprove race as an issue by citing a QB controversy where the more accomplished black QB coming off a career year should be benched for the white dude that had accomplished nothing in the NCAAs to that point.

You really didn't get it at all. I used Mitch-Marquese to say that when skin color was different, the arguments for one over the other was merit-based (talent/winnability). Which they ALL should be merit-based. Communicating merits as reasons for starting anyone over anyone else is generally how ALL coaches who don't get fired operate (and also the ones who DO get fired).

A lot of this was not directly stated by me but implied. airtime understood though.

airtime even said he didn't believe coaches were generally malicious or incompetent but went on to describe how he thinks the system ITSELF has flaws that negatively impact QB opportunities for the disadvantaged altogether. I disagreed but we had a productive discussion ...

something of which you seem incapable.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

What are you talking about? I was comparing Williams 2015 season to Trubisky's 2016 season

Why on earth would you/anyone do that? Williams was gone in 2016. Were there people criticizing Fedora in 2016 for playing Trubisky at QB instead of Williams even though WILLIAMS WAS NO LONGER ON THE TEAM?!

That would be the DUMBEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD. I can't even comprehend the stupidity. I thought Gene Chizik was kind of a fraud at Auburn, and he ended up taking a lot of heat, but I don't recall people complaining in 2011 that Chizik should have been playing Cam Newton more at QB...because they probably realized that Cam Newton was in the NFL and no longer a member of the Auburn program.

I am honestly shocked at your stupidity. You've said a lot of crazy things in the past, sunk to unattainable depths of reasoning, disgraced yourself in vain attempts of 'arguing'....but this takes the cake. A total failure at all levels...comprehension, logic, understanding of subject matter. All a record low.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

If I had any idea you would be triggered by UNC football I would have dropped that line altogether because you are simply the most stupidly tiresome poster.

I knew that UNC bball was a "remy trigger", but I took the chance that remy would be like most UNC basketball bandwagoners and be indifferent toward the football program. A grave error on my part. And here we are. I'll try to dig up remy's old 'analysis' on UNC's title game loss to Villanova a few years ago...paraphrasing it doesn't do it justice.

 

[Bearly]

Remind me to never fuck with you, Rory, LOL.