Doug Williams comment about QBs and race

[botfly10]

So, as the life expectancy of people in the US moves downwards you happen to think that somehow the old generation is going to figure it out at the xer0 hour? srs?

If they happen to figure it out it will not help them, but rather all of the younger generations that they detest. They will literally figure out the life extension problem just as they are beyond the capability of using it, extending the lives of those that they think do not deserve it.

well, I was kinda kidding around, but it is true about the funding for that area of research.

 

[Bearly]

Keep this in mind when Evans went to Oakland ( it was mostly in a back-up role....kinda' ironic). Plus, he didn't play in many games.

There was a good reason.

 

[KittiesKorner]

it's fun to READ these threads in reverse

 

[airtime143]

But Rivers and the Mannings are legit good to great QBs. I think you are reaching when you use family ties to invoke nepotism keeping opportunities away from black players trying out to be QB.

I am not denying nepotism (Jarrett Payton doesn't get picked up as UDFA by the Bears without his family name sure), but J. Payton didn't earn the privilege to play in the NFL. Rivers and the Mannings did (I pass on the Eli debate while NOT HOF imo)

Your whole point about smart vs. athletic in a QB is true for everyone. And while coaches may favor some due to a famous last name in HS or college, we know that no one in the history of the NFL became an All-Pro due to a last name.

Some nepotism in lower levels aside, NFL is merit-based and so is NCAA where schools have walk-on tryouts. Any exceptions fly in the face of the spirit of the regulations of the game itself.

You CAn find some coaches blindly holding on to a lower talent QB (UNC coach held onto starting Marquise Williams too long over Mitch Trubisky in the view of many UNC sportswriters),

but how do you prove malicious intent over incompetence?

I dont think it is malicious or incompetent.
People who can give their kids every advantage have every right to do so.
I think it is lack of support for early standouts without the family advantage (money, ties, or both)

My point is, in the lower levels where mental growth is most important, it is entirely possible future GOATS are slipping through the cracks because they are not given the same advantages as the lucky ones.
I also believe it is entirely possible that somewhere out there is a kid that runs like Adrian Peterson and has a mind that could rival Brady at QB, but will never be developed due to him being "pigeonholed" as RB without ever considering taking him out.

If Williams rally wants to see a change, the best way to do so would be a series of clinics and a support network across the board to support and mentor early talents- give them the time and effort to build their games to a point where their talent can eclipse a name or a bank account.

It again boils down to money- I was able to dig up an old article on placekickers and the business of making them. https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...lusive-world-of-football-placekickers/278908/

Bottom line is the camps not only teach skill, they push their attendees along by having evaluators in their pockets and a network to move the kids along.
After all, it is money. Your camp produces a guy who takes the next step, your camp can use that as a selling point to charge more.
It certainly isnt exclusive to football though.


What I would love to see someone dig in to is the money angle. Hell- the NFL itself should sponsor a study and get to the heart of it if only to assure they really are mining the talent pool correctly.

I would be willing to bet the farm that when you look at NFL QB's and the financial situations of their parents growing up, that the parents income is significantly above the country average.

 

[Icculus]

???????

?

How does it feel to actual be human waste?

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

At the risk of stereotyping a southern school, if Trubs was markedly better than Williams, Trubs wouda' started at UNC.

I wasn't making the case that he should have started becuase I literally don't even know the first thing about UNC football in 2015; merely pointing out how subjective airtime's criteria was.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

Williams had a better record as a starter than Trubs so not sure how Fedora blindly held onto anyone. Williams was a better college QB (passing and running) while Trubs was the better NFL prospect. Not unheard of as the college game is different and values running QBs more than the NFL does and limited passers can succeed in college because the windows are much larger.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/marquise-williams-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/mitch-trubisky-1.html

Williams was more of a threat on the ground but combined their stats are really not that far off. Both hard around 4k combined yards and 37 TDs or so. Entirely reasonable for him to stick with Williams as they were competing for the ACC crown with Clemson.

I know reading material for the actual point of what the poster is saying eludes you as you scan feverishly looking for a morsel of debateable material anywhere at all costs, but I was not arguing for Mitch over Williams, rather stating that airtime's criteria for what constitutes nepotism or favoritism for one guy over another is awful subjective as some writers wanted Mitch to be given the keys earlier,

Disagree with them? Take it up with them. I have zero idea if it was true and don't even care because merit-based performance is the only factor that matters.

To airtime's post, if any coach starts anyone at any position without doing due diligence into merit-based performance, then they will not last at any level.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

I dont think it is malicious or incompetent.
People who can give their kids every advantage have every right to do so.
I think it is lack of support for early standouts without the family advantage (money, ties, or both)

My point is, in the lower levels where mental growth is most important, it is entirely possible future GOATS are slipping through the cracks because they are not given the same advantages as the lucky ones.
I also believe it is entirely possible that somewhere out there is a kid that runs like Adrian Peterson and has a mind that could rival Brady at QB, but will never be developed due to him being "pigeonholed" as RB without ever considering taking him out.

If Williams rally wants to see a change, the best way to do so would be a series of clinics and a support network across the board to support and mentor early talents- give them the time and effort to build their games to a point where their talent can eclipse a name or a bank account.

It again boils down to money- I was able to dig up an old article on placekickers and the business of making them. https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...lusive-world-of-football-placekickers/278908/

Bottom line is the camps not only teach skill, they push their attendees along by having evaluators in their pockets and a network to move the kids along.
After all, it is money. Your camp produces a guy who takes the next step, your camp can use that as a selling point to charge more.
It certainly isnt exclusive to football though.


What I would love to see someone dig in to is the money angle. Hell- the NFL itself should sponsor a study and get to the heart of it if only to assure they really are mining the talent pool correctly.

I would be willing to bet the farm that when you look at NFL QB's and the financial situations of their parents growing up, that the parents income is significantly above the country average.

You are getting a little remy-like here. What is your point? What is your "fix" to this alleged problem?

Again, people who make more a year than me can afford better coaching and camps. Congrats. It's the way of the world.

If any kid anywhere has talent to throw the ball you honestly think a HS coach won't try them out and put them in a better position to get more training (in camps or specialty QB coaches to come in etc) in order to use them for wins?

Let me stop and just simply ask again what your point is and what your solution to this "problem" would look like?

PS - The article about PK is irrelevant to the conversation as the issue with an inability to teach PK or scout PK does not translate to the QB position as there is far more ability to teach QB in most coaches and far more ability to scout QB than PK. But most of all, lol at the strings played for the players that want to kick but have no coaches to teach them technique. Guess Google is only for the wealthy too huh.

When I was in HS, I went to the library and got a book on placekicking fundamentals and techniques because my coach told me to and also, I didn't have AOL and 56 k speed at home and that was how I drilled.

I think it's interesting that Youtube is full of videos teaching multiple different placekicking styles but oh the poor student that wants to be a PK but has no kicking coach or kicking camp nearby ...

if he drills and works hard and tweaks what doesn't work along with what does work, and gets to the point where he hits 90% from 50 yards, he can walk on any NCAA campus and start period, regardless of socio-economic background.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Here's all I said: "When Evans had deep threat....WR James Scott (we were dangerous on "O")....we lead the league in pass yrds. per play.
Then our management / ownership was to cheap to re-sign Scott and he left the team. "

So that in no way says he was "good". I'm saying he had some success when he had a decent Wr.
But we'll never know ( how "good" he could've been) since he didn't get all or some of the tools he needed. Now what I will say is Evans shouda' applied himself more i.e. like a Brady or a Wilson. I don't think he went balls out to improve as a Qb, as much as he should've.
Plus, he didn't good coaches ( and lets not put to much emphasis on this).

I think saying Evans had "some success" is a stretch, and I'm not sure where you got your yards per pass play data. Evans inherited a team that went to the postseason 2 of the last 3 years, and led them to records of 7-9 and 6-10. In 1980, the Bears were tied for 21st in pass yards per play with a dismal 5.5 clip. In 1981, the Bears were 28th (aka last place) in pass yards per play with an astoundingly bad 4.7 average.

My point was that Evans wasn't even good in college. It has nothing to do with bad coaching or not applying himself...he just wasn't very good to begin with.

 

[Bearly]

Maybe this is a chance to put the myth to bed I guess

Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue

Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue

Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out

www.scientificamerican.com

Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out

More than 100 years ago, American sociologist W.E.B. Du Bois was concerned that race was being used as a biological explanation for what he understood to be social and cultural differences between different populations of people. He spoke out against the idea of "white" and "black" as discrete groups, claiming that these distinctions ignored the scope of human diversity.

Science would favor Du Bois. Today, the mainstream belief among scientists is that race is a social construct without biological meaning. And yet, you might still open a study on genetics in a major scientific journal and find categories like "white" and "black" being used as biological variables.

In an article published today (Feb. 4) in the journal Science, four scholars say racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out.

They've called on the U.S. National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine to put together a panel of experts across the biological and social sciences to come up with ways for researchers to shift away from the racial concept in genetics research.

"It's a concept we think is too crude to provide useful information, it's a concept that has social meaning that interferes in the scientific understanding of human genetic diversity and it's a concept that we are not the first to call upon moving away from," said Michael Yudell, a professor of public health at Drexel University in Philadelphia.

Yudell said that modern genetics research is operating in a paradox, which is that race is understood to be a useful tool to elucidate human genetic diversity, but on the other hand, race is also understood to be a poorly defined marker of that diversity and an imprecise proxy for the relationship between ancestry and genetics.

"Essentially, I could not agree more with the authors," said Svante Pääbo, a biologist and director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany, who worked on the Neanderthal genome but was not involved with the new paper.

"What the study of complete genomes from different parts of the world has shown is that even between Africa and Europe, for example, there is not a single absolute genetic difference, meaning no single variant where all Africans have one variant and all Europeans another one, even when recent migration is disregarded," Pääbo told Live Science. "It is all a question of differences in how frequent different variants are on different continents and in different regions."

In one example that demonstrated genetic differences were not fixed along racial lines, the full genomes of James Watson and Craig Venter, two famous American scientists of European ancestry, were compared to that of a Korean scientist, Seong-Jin Kim. It turned out that Watson (who, ironically, became ostracized in the scientific community after making racist remarks) and Venter shared fewer variations in their genetic sequences than they each shared with Kim.

Assumptions about genetic differences between people of different races have had obvious social and historical repercussions, and they still threaten to fuel racist beliefs.

The authors of the new Science article noted that racial assumptions could also be particularly dangerous in a medical setting.

"If you make clinical predictions based on somebody's race, you're going to be wrong a good chunk of the time," Yudell told Live Science. In the paper, he and his colleagues used the example of cystic fibrosis, which is underdiagnosed in people of African ancestry because it is thought of as a "white" disease.

Mindy Fullilove, a psychiatrist at Columbia University, thinks the changes proposed in the Science article are "badly needed." Fullilove noted that by some laws in the United States, people with one black ancestor of 32 might be called "black," but their 31 other ancestors are also important in influencing their health.

"This is a cogent and important call for us to shift our work," Fullilove said. "It will have an enormous influence. And it will make for better science."

So what other variables could be used if the racial concept is thrown out? Pääbo said geography might be a better substitute in regions such as Europe to define "populations" from a genetic perspective. However, he added that, in North America, where the majority of the population has come from different parts of the world during the past 300 years, distinctions like "African Americans" or "European Americans" might still work as a proxy to suggest where a person's major ancestry originated.

Yudell also said scientists need to get more specific with their language, perhaps using terms like "ancestry" or "population" that might more precisely reflect the relationship between humans and their genes, on both the individual and population level. The researchers also acknowledged that there are a few areas where race as a construct might still be useful in scientific research: as a political and social, but not biological, variable.

"While we argue phasing out racial terminology in the biological sciences, we also acknowledge that using race as a political or social category to study racism, although filled with lots of challenges, remains necessary given our need to understand how structural inequities and discrimination produce health disparities between groups," Yudell said.

Let me know when you need to treat a white guy with sickle cell. The problem here is the negative association with genetic priorities of region being equated with racial profiling. Every race has cross sections that fit about every physical and mental demographic so all need to be treated as individuals without preconceptions but that doesn't mean there aren't also differences in emphasis. The very reason folks are black or white or have certain hair types has to do with biological preference to region. Same with other physical tendencies. Forest and trees stuff. To say that there isn't a qualitative difference in various peoples of the human species is not the same as saying they are identical in tendency.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

I think anecdotally there is some truth to that because in a lot of cases, that black QB is athletic enough to play another position so more than likely if the coaching staff isn't immediately convinced the dude is a QB, they are likely to ask him to change positions to get that athleticism on the field.

How often does this happen in the NFL? A team drafts a black QB with the intention on playing him at QB, but instead says "you know what? Playing QB isn't that important in the overall scheme of things, and this guy is so athletic he can play any number of positions at the NFL level. Lets just throw in the towel on this guy being our QB and play him on kick coverage."

Maybe Terrelle Pryor with the Raiders? Maybe? The only guy I can think of definitively is Kordell Stewart...and the 'irony' (since there always is an ironic element to your postings) is that Stewart eventually did become the Steelers full-time starter at QB anyways.

Since you said "anecdotally", please list the anecdotal occurrences that you were thinking of when you made the post. Thanks.

 

[iueyedoc]

Maybe this is a chance to put the myth to bed I guess

Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue

Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue

Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out

www.scientificamerican.com

Racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out

More than 100 years ago, American sociologist W.E.B. Du Bois was concerned that race was being used as a biological explanation for what he understood to be social and cultural differences between different populations of people...

Yudell also said scientists need to get more specific with their language, perhaps using terms like "ancestry" or "population" that might more precisely reflect the relationship between humans and their genes, on both the individual and population level. The researchers also acknowledged that there are a few areas where race as a construct might still be useful in scientific research: as a political and social, but not biological, variable.

"While we argue phasing out racial terminology in the biological sciences, we also acknowledge that using race as a political or social category to study racism, although filled with lots of challenges, remains necessary given our need to understand how structural inequities and discrimination produce health disparities between groups," Yudell said.

"What the study of complete genomes from different parts of the world has shown is that even between Africa and Europe, for example, there is not a single absolute genetic difference, meaning no single variant where all Africans have one variant and all Europeans another one, even when recent migration is disregarded," Pääbo told Live Science. "It is all a question of differences in how frequent different variants are on different continents and in different regions."

FFS, your cited articles even acknowledge tendencies or frequencies for certain races, as I had said and you had a shit fit , you just want to use the word "ancestry" instead of race. If that makes you feel more enlightened, great. It's like when they stopped using the word suspect and started calling them a person of interest. Same fucking difference just more PC.

Does it seriously make you feel better, smarter, or more enlightened to say persons of African ancestry tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber then those of European ancestry rather than blacks tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber then whites?

With the stigma of interracial couples fading, most the identifiable traits between races will become mostly homogeneous, at least in the US and other diverse countries in 5-10 more generations.

OOPS!!

I meant to say,with the stigma of interancestral couples fading, most the identifiable traits between ancestries will become mostly homogeneous, at least in the US and other diverse countries in 5-10 more generations.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/marquise-williams-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/mitch-trubisky-1.html

Williams was more of a threat on the ground but combined their stats are really not that far off.

I like the passing efficiency stats from 2015...you know, the year when they were both on the team...

Williams = 61%, 8.6 YPA, 150.4 rating

Trubisky = 85% (!!), 11.8 YPA, 226.4 rating

So, one QB has a 24% higher completion rate, averages more than 3 yards per attempt, and has a higher rating by over 75 points. Really not that far off, though. To get an NFL equivalent on those numerical differences, you'd have to compare Nathan Peterman's career to Dan Marino's 1984 season.

 

[iueyedoc]

Let me know when you need to treat a white guy with sickle cell.

Hey now, keep it civil, that is a European ancestral population guy.



As an aside, I don't think when someone asks, "Which one is Doug" That the response, "He is the African guy in accounting," is going to be viewed as a step forward.

 

[Outlaw Josey Cutler]

It's like when they stopped using the word suspect and started calling them a person of interest. Same fucking difference just more PC.

Does it seriously make you feel better, smarter, or more enlightened to say persons of African ancestry tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber then those of European ancestry rather than blacks tend to have more fast twitch muscle fiber then whites?

With the stigma of interracial couples fading, most the identifiable traits between races will become mostly homogeneous, at least in the US and other diverse countries in 5-10 more generations.

OOPS!!

I meant to say,with the stigma of interancestral couples fading, most the identifiable traits between ancestries will become mostly homogeneous, at least in the US and other diverse countries in 5-10 more generations.

Not really. A person of interest is anyone who may have pertinent information regarding the crime. A person of interest may turn into a suspect or may not.

 

[airtime143]

You are getting a little remy-like here. What is your point? What is your "fix" to this alleged problem?

Again, people who make more a year than me can afford better coaching and camps. Congrats. It's the way of the world.

If any kid anywhere has talent to throw the ball you honestly think a HS coach won't try them out and put them in a better position to get more training (in camps or specialty QB coaches to come in etc) in order to use them for wins?

Let me stop and just simply ask again what your point is and what your solution to this "problem" would look like?

PS - The article about PK is irrelevant to the conversation as the issue with an inability to teach PK or scout PK does not translate to the QB position as there is far more ability to teach QB in most coaches and far more ability to scout QB than PK. But most of all, lol at the strings played for the players that want to kick but have no coaches to teach them technique. Guess Google is only for the wealthy too huh.

When I was in HS, I went to the library and got a book on placekicking fundamentals and techniques because my coach told me to and also, I didn't have AOL and 56 k speed at home and that was how I drilled.

I think it's interesting that Youtube is full of videos teaching multiple different placekicking styles but oh the poor student that wants to be a PK but has no kicking coach or kicking camp nearby ...

if he drills and works hard and tweaks what doesn't work along with what does work, and gets to the point where he hits 90% from 50 yards, he can walk on any NCAA campus and start period, regardless of socio-economic background.

my reason for putting up the placekicking article was clearly stated- nepotism and money is a big deciding factor.

My fix for the situation is clearly stated- someone (williams would be a good start) needs to start a clinic/foundation to identify and support the growth of disadvantaged possible greats in a position that more often than not requires a great deal of money/time/support to fully develop.


Not remy like at all- identify a likely reason, point to examples of how money and status contribute greatly to growth, offer a possible way to help those without the money or dedicated support structure.

Clean and direct.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

If they happen to figure it out it will not help them, but rather all of the younger generations that they detest. They will literally figure out the life extension problem just as they are beyond the capability of using it, extending the lives of those that they think do not deserve it.

Are you talking about the future of humankind, or when CCS decided to unban everyone?

 

[Rory Sparrow]

What I would love to see someone dig in to is the money angle. Hell- the NFL itself should sponsor a study and get to the heart of it if only to assure they really are mining the talent pool correctly.

I would want to see the 'camp' angle first. Is it really that exclusive? I thought the only reason college coaches even offered camps was to invite potential recruits and evaluate/impress them. I didn't really think money was a factor in any of it. It seems like a lot of colleges recruit/play black QBs. JMO

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I'm all for this shit .... just don't do it when I'm trying to watch a football game after a long week of hard work. Besides, it'a hard to empathize with a young athlete protesting equality while making millions interrupting my football game, which is my escape from reality.

Good Lord....

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

I'm all for this shit .... just don't do it when I'm trying to watch a football game after a long week of hard work. Besides, it'a hard to empathize with a young athlete protesting equality while making millions interrupting my football game, which is my escape from reality.

Yeah! Forget about police brutality and institutional/general racism during @Bear Pride Sunday entertainment! Black men kneeling for 60 seconds really ruins his day! How dare they protest serious issues during his leisure time!