Goose Gossage - Tirade

[The Hawk]

Goose called out those that are active in the game and ruining it because they are highly educated and using that education to play the game better. That swipes right at guys like Theo, Joe and the rest that don't just do things because their gut tells them to. Heck, they may have missed breakfast.

What does "play the game better" mean? IT still comes down to a batter facing a pitcher and all of the stats in the world cannot predict the outcome of that. Pitchers and catchers have gotten together before the game for a long long time going over hitters and deciding how to pitch them and defend them. Advanced scouting reports also. But to base your approach on the "predictive" aspect of a statistical analysis is asinine.

 

[brett05]

You are wrong about Rose and Mantle. Rose didn't get his nickname Charley Hustle for nothing He was one of the greatest players who ever played the game and so was the Mick. You can have Bautista and his ilk.

I never said Rose and Mantle weren't that. You just side tracked the entire conversation.

 

[brett05]

What does "play the game better" mean? IT still comes down to a batter facing a pitcher and all of the stats in the world cannot predict the outcome of that. Pitchers and catchers have gotten together before the game for a long long time going over hitters and deciding how to pitch them and defend them. Advanced scouting reports also. But to base your approach on the "predictive" aspect of a statistical analysis is asinine.

Believing otherwise is asinine. The more information you have the better choice you'll make. That's factual and not something I can imagine anyone would dare debate.

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

Believing otherwise is asinine. The more information you have the better choice you'll make. That's factual and not something I can imagine anyone would dare debate.

I guess Hawk has more TWTW than you brett.
It's in the numbers.
I looked.

 

[Icculus]

I guess Hawk has more TWTW than you brett.
It's in the numbers.
I looked.

 

[The Hawk]

I never said Rose and Mantle weren't that. You just side tracked the entire conversation.

No I didn't . You said that Mantle showed up pitchers and Rose taunted players. This entire thing was your trying to equivocate them with Bautista who is a punk. Neither of those guys were punks.

 

[The Hawk]

Believing otherwise is asinine. The more information you have the better choice you'll make. That's factual and not something I can imagine anyone would dare debate.

Did you ever hear of analysis paralysis? You are pretty much saying that all someone needs is predictive stats to manage a baseball team and the more info the better. That is nonsense.. All this information does is show you what has happened in the past and past tendencies. But to base your decisions on that is nowhere nearly enough. There is way too much happening in real time that determines what decision gets made.

Typically, hitters mostly hit mistakes made by a pitcher. It doesn't mean that the catcher didn't call the right pitch or he didn't locate the pitch right, or the batter just guessed right, or the pitch didn't move to a good spot or the hitter just got lucky. Same thing about a pitcher. Great hitters set up pitchers and great pitchers set up batters. It doesn't have much to do with statistics, it has more to do with getting inside the others mind.

 

[The Hawk]

I guess Hawk has more TWTW than you brett.
It's in the numbers.
I looked.

Um......Translate please. What is TWTW?

 

[brett05]

No I didn't . You said that Mantle showed up pitchers and Rose taunted players. This entire thing was your trying to equivocate them with Bautista who is a punk. Neither of those guys were punks.

You have yet to show Bautista as a punk but I have shown you guys that are just like Bautista and provided video proof.

 

[brett05]

Did you ever hear of analysis paralysis? You are pretty much saying that all someone needs is predictive stats to manage a baseball team and the more info the better. That is nonsense.. All this information does is show you what has happened in the past and past tendencies. But to base your decisions on that is nowhere nearly enough. There is way too much happening in real time that determines what decision gets made.

Typically, hitters mostly hit mistakes made by a pitcher. It doesn't mean that the catcher didn't call the right pitch or he didn't locate the pitch right, or the batter just guessed right, or the pitch didn't move to a good spot or the hitter just got lucky. Same thing about a pitcher. Great hitters set up pitchers and great pitchers set up batters. It doesn't have much to do with statistics, it has more to do with getting inside the others mind.

Pretty much NOT saying that at all. I am saying that the more information you have the more successful one will be and that's the technology end of it. There's a reason why every single sport is moving toward more analytics. You can hate it all you want, but it does not change the FACT that it helps. You are still wrong.

 

[brett05]

Um......Translate please. What is TWTW?

You're a White Sox fan? The Will To Win

 

[Icculus]

It's just a coincidence that Cawk doesn't consider white players doing the same thing Bautista does at times punks, yet doesn't like the dark-skinned Latino.

#NotRacistISwear

 

[The Hawk]

It's just a coincidence that Cawk doesn't consider white players doing the same thing Bautista does at times punks, yet doesn't like the dark-skinned Latino.

#NotRacistISwear

Amazing how you can bring racism into an argument like you just did. I believe that I criticized Santo in this thread for being an asshole did I not? It was Brett who brought up white players not me. Assholes are in every race. Minnie Minoso and Luis Aparicio are two of my top five White Sox players of all time. A Cuban and a Venezuelian(sp) player.

The fact that Bautista is Hispanic has nothing to do with him being an asshole. He just is. And trying to equate his behavior to Pete Rose and Mickey Mantle is ridiculous.

 

[The Hawk]

Pretty much NOT saying that at all. I am saying that the more information you have the more successful one will be and that's the technology end of it. There's a reason why every single sport is moving toward more analytics. You can hate it all you want, but it does not change the FACT that it helps. You are still wrong.

Analysis paralysis. I am talking about a question of degree not a concept of using information to one's benefit and I really do question how important advanced statistics are to the game of baseball in terms of predicting outcomes. That is what I am saying. It still comes down to singular act of hitting a pitched ball where a defensive player cannot catch it on make a play on it. IF you want to use statistics to access value for a player, I agree. If you want to use statistics for salary negotiations, I agree there also. IF you want to use previous outcomes to help place your defensive players, fine with that. Same thing with how be pitch a certain batter. But I am saying that it doesn't take a computer to do this. I believe that in the past, managers and coaches also used information in the same way albeit via advanced scouting, recollection of players strengths and weaknesses, pre-gae discussions between pitchers and catchers, and over-all knowledge of the game.

 

[The Hawk]

You have yet to show Bautista as a punk but I have shown you guys that are just like Bautista and provided video proof.

YOu can believe what you want to believe. Standing at the plate after hitting a home-run, then glaring at the pitcher and then flipping a bat in the air like he does is being a punk. It is showing a player up. Mantle did not do the same thing. LIke I aid before, he frequently flipped his bat after he did something bad like in hitting into a double play. That was just his expression at anger at himself for failing. Rose didn't deliberately plan to show Fosse up. What he did was within the rules since Fosse was blocking the plate without the ball. HE showed emotion after the hit because he scored the run and his reaction was similar to a running back knocking over a linebacker while scoring a touchdown. It was emtion. What Bautista does is scripted and intended to embarrass the other guy.

 

[The Hawk]

To Brett:

Some research about the Mick and his bat flip. TUrns out that I was correct in that Mantle most of the time flipped the bat when he was pissed at himself for striking out or hitting into a double play. Certainly not to embarrass anyone else;

1/6/2016
This old footage of Mickey Mantle contains your dad's new favorite bat flip

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By Mike Bertha

Before Jose Bautista's epic punctuation mark in the postseason ... before Yasiel Puig made it his signature move (and then decided to withhold the goods) ... before you spent every morning scouring the depths of YouTube for random Korean homers just in the hopes of catching a glimpse of some twirling lumber ... some guy named Mickey Mantle was king of the bat flip:

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/6/1/4/161171614/mantle_m_hdmgm3ds.gif

Twitter user Scott Horsfield recently pointed out one of Mantle's flips in some old Yankees footage, which sent us clamoring back into the archives to unearth more of that sweet, sweet nectar. Turns out that The Mick employed the bat flip with some regularity, though most of those came out of his frustration with himself for having hit into an out.

 

[The Hawk]

Another example of the difference between what Mantle did versus what Bautista does. From Yardbarker.com"


WATCH: Hall-of-Fame Yankees slugger Mickey Mantle used to flip his bat, too
Toronto Blue Jays outfielder Jose Bautista may have done it best but evidently the bat flip has been around a long time.Check out a pair of videos that show Mantle flipping his bat after what appear to be flyouts:Those are frustration bat tosses, as opposed to the epic celebratory flip like we saw in the 2015 posteseason by Joey Bats after crushing a three-run homer against to help...

 

[SilenceS]

If the Hawk was pitching to me, I would hit a homerun. Do the bat flip and then stare at him while I rounded the bases. Come at me bro

 

[SilenceS]

Yea, old timers never bat flipped

[video=youtube;Sff0F0kH4GM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sff0F0kH4GM[/video]

 

[brett05]

Analysis paralysis. I am talking about a question of degree not a concept of using information to one's benefit and I really do question how important advanced statistics are to the game of baseball in terms of predicting outcomes. That is what I am saying. It still comes down to singular act of hitting a pitched ball where a defensive player cannot catch it on make a play on it. IF you want to use statistics to access value for a player, I agree. If you want to use statistics for salary negotiations, I agree there also. IF you want to use previous outcomes to help place your defensive players, fine with that. Same thing with how be pitch a certain batter. But I am saying that it doesn't take a computer to do this. I believe that in the past, managers and coaches also used information in the same way albeit via advanced scouting, recollection of players strengths and weaknesses, pre-gae discussions between pitchers and catchers, and over-all knowledge of the game.

Then you agree with us Hawk and not agree with Goose. See folks have been trying to do what the "nerds" are doing all along. Now there is something that verifies the "eye test" and gets it precise so more informed decisions can be made.