I want to talk about roster construction in general.

[Waetchter]

Those braves teams spent heavy on pitching

I thought the Braves developed their own pitchers. Charlie Leibrandt was past his prime when the Braves signed him. Maddux is obvious. But not really sure that those 90's Braves teams 'bought' their pitching like the Cubs have tried to do.

 

[beckdawg]

I thought the Braves developed their own pitchers. Charlie Leibrandt was past his prime when the Braves signed him. Maddux is obvious. But not really sure that those 90's Braves teams 'bought' their pitching like the Cubs have tried to do.

Spent meaning tied up money in. Glavin and Smoltz obviously were more home grown.

 

[fatbeard]

When Theo got here, he said develop position players, buy pitching. That was his construction. Now he is in a media war with the manager he could have let go after falling on our face last year.

To me this is like Bowman and Quenville having a pissing contest and the entire locker room getting wet.

Wherever Theo starts, you might as well build a monument to him for what he did. But you really dig into both the boston side and this side, it always boils down to how does he sustain it. Look at the choices in boston, Drew, Crawford, Ramirez. Boston was anchored by those bad deals just like the cubs are now with Yu over Jake, Shitwood, Morrow, and to a part, needing to spend 40 million more on Hamels because of the bad choce of YU over Arrieta, and of course 182 million dollar defender Heyward.

Fine, he HAD to get Chapman for the world series, giving up a superstar in Torreyes. But then resign Chapman for christs sake. That was the one moment the Yankees just shit down his throat, knowing they were not making a run and knowing Chapman was coming back. I wont put all of Chapman not resigning on Theo, since Maddon basically used him like a singapore whore in the playoffs, but you want to talk construction

Lester, Zobrist and Chapman, done 3 seasons ago is what everyone defends Theo with. Its what has he done lately that drowns Theo, and there is history to bad bad choices. How would this team look with Torreyes, Jimininez, Cease, you know, the montra of develop talent and buy pitching.

I dont think Boston fought too hard to keep Theo, and being the guy that broke TWO CURSES was far too much for him to pass up, but that is Theo, curse breaker and not sustained championships. Maybe its time Theo went to Cleveland.

Yeah, go ahead bash, say, its easy to say hindsight has 20/20 vision, but when your best decisions were made three years ago and now you are paying for bad ones without the talent you gave up, there seems to be a valid argument while we wait for bad contracts to expire.

Posts like this would have more credibility if they didn't all sound like the Cubs had lost 90+ games the past two seasons, instead of going to the NLCS three out of the past four years.

1) Epstein and Maddon are not in a "media war". Full stop. This is a figment of your imagination.

2) Boston won a WS in 2013 while "anchored" by most of Epstein's "terrible" players and acquisitions. What a burden he was to their sustained success over a decade with, you know, three fucking championships.

3) Everyone on this board was ecstatic when the Cubs signed Darvish. Now some disingenuous posters are claiming they knew he would fail before he got here, and Epstein should've as well. Get outta here with that revisionist BS. He's made one start after not playing baseball for nearly a year.

4) Gleyber Torres is not a superstar nor is Jimenez, and the fact you are claiming this just shows how dishonest you are and how badly you're trying to manufacture an axe to grind against Epstein.

5) Claiming that the Cubs are "drowning" in bad choices by Epstein is ludicrous when this team won 95 games last year with its best player ineffective for essentially the entire year. I wonder, is it possible for you to be any more of a drama queen?

6) Claiming that Epstein hasn't had sustained success is absurd. You're either being unbelievably myopic, or incredibly dishonest--which, hey, seems to be a pattern with you. He had sustained success in Boston and he's having it here. You are literally living through the greatest stretch of Cubs baseball in a century, you're just so mental you can't see it.

 

[anotheridiot]

Posts like this would have more credibility if they didn't all sound like the Cubs had lost 90+ games the past two seasons, instead of going to the NLCS three out of the past four years.

1) Epstein and Maddon are not in a "media war". Full stop. This is a figment of your imagination.

2) Boston won a WS in 2013 while "anchored" by most of Epstein's "terrible" players and acquisitions. What a burden he was to their sustained success over a decade with, you know, three fucking championships.

3) Everyone on this board was ecstatic when the Cubs signed Darvish. Now some disingenuous posters are claiming they knew he would fail before he got here, and Epstein should've as well. Get outta here with that revisionist BS. He's made one start after not playing baseball for nearly a year.

4) Gleyber Torres is not a superstar nor is Jimenez, and the fact you are claiming this just shows how dishonest you are and how badly you're trying to manufacture an axe to grind against Epstein.

5) Claiming that the Cubs are "drowning" in bad choices by Epstein is ludicrous when this team won 95 games last year with its best player ineffective for essentially the entire year. I wonder, is it possible for you to be any more of a drama queen?

6) Claiming that Epstein hasn't had sustained success is absurd. You're either being unbelievably myopic, or incredibly dishonest--which, hey, seems to be a pattern with you. He had sustained success in Boston and he's having it here. You are literally living through the greatest stretch of Cubs baseball in a century, you're just so mental you can't see it.

And posts like this prove that you are suckled on Theo's bag.

1. When has Theo ever gone to the press about inside the clubhouse business? EVER?? He only started leaking this information this year.

2. Boston won with theo in 2013, finished in last place in 2014 and 2015. Let google be your friend and search worst boston free agent signings and Crawford and Ramirez are listed there, two out of the top 6. Not by genius know it all message board posters, but guys that get paid to write. The won in spite of Crawford like they won in spite of Heyward.

3. Well, not everybody. I am pretty sure I wrote that you gave your ace, cy young winning, two no hitter pitching best hurler a take it or leave it offer the day before they wasted the signing on Darvish.

4. Give it time, you know, that same time we were supposed to give Theo when he got here, to find the talent, develop it and bring it to the major league roster.

5. Playoff wins and titles are what define success.

6. Well, to be as redundant as you are, playoff wins and titles are what define success. (The post was about his free agent choices numb nuts)

You did not let me down, I knew I could count on you to prove you do not look at this like many others do, otherwise, why in the hell did Boston allow Theo to leave?

 

[Rory Sparrow]

He's made one start after not playing baseball for nearly a year.

Sounds like a great signing.

 

[SilenceS]

And posts like this prove that you are suckled on Theo's bag.

1. When has Theo ever gone to the press about inside the clubhouse business? EVER?? He only started leaking this information this year.

2. Boston won with theo in 2013, finished in last place in 2014 and 2015. Let google be your friend and search worst boston free agent signings and Crawford and Ramirez are listed there, two out of the top 6. Not by genius know it all message board posters, but guys that get paid to write. The won in spite of Crawford like they won in spite of Heyward.

3. Well, not everybody. I am pretty sure I wrote that you gave your ace, cy young winning, two no hitter pitching best hurler a take it or leave it offer the day before they wasted the signing on Darvish.

4. Give it time, you know, that same time we were supposed to give Theo when he got here, to find the talent, develop it and bring it to the major league roster.

5. Playoff wins and titles are what define success.

6. Well, to be as redundant as you are, playoff wins and titles are what define success. (The post was about his free agent choices numb nuts)

You did not let me down, I knew I could count on you to prove you do not look at this like many others do, otherwise, why in the hell did Boston allow Theo to leave?

The owner and him started to not get a long. Pretty simple.

Also, how does going to the playoffs 4 straight years, 3 NLCS, and 1 world series title not playoff success? I bet you want to wipe the Dodgers whole organization out as well.

Hope this is a shtick of yours or you sound really dumb.

 

[CSF77]

To be fair Theo has made his share of bad F/A signings. E.Jax, Heyward, Chatwood and I hope not Darvish.

His best deals we're deadline trades off of flips.

Edwards for Garza.
Hendricks for Dempster
Arreta and Strop for Fieldman

Those trades worked out great

F/A success signings: Lester and Zobrist.

Successful trades in season. Soler for Wade. Vogelbach and Blackburn for Montgomery to date is favor Cubs. Blackburn might turn out ok.

The worst has been their thought process on pitching in the draft. It has been far too conservative to date. All are safe picks with little upside. And that has been a issue going forward.

 

[anotheridiot]

To be fair Theo has made his share of bad F/A signings. E.Jax, Heyward, Chatwood and I hope not Darvish.

His best deals we're deadline trades off of flips.

Edwards for Garza.
Hendricks for Dempster
Arreta and Strop for Fieldman

Those trades worked out great

F/A success signings: Lester and Zobrist.

Successful trades in season. Soler for Wade. Vogelbach and Blackburn for Montgomery to date is favor Cubs. Blackburn might turn out ok.

The worst has been their thought process on pitching in the draft. It has been far too conservative to date. All are safe picks with little upside. And that has been a issue going forward.

That is the key, be fair and really think about CONSTRUCTION. I would have added Chapman to that great trade if they resigned him, but Gleybor for a rental could have gotten you a young starter that made Shitwood never happen. How many games that started MsSTella or Happ in the infield had a different outcome where we are talking about 4 100 win seasons?

I just see alot of moneyball billy beane in this offseason. You dont play my guy, I will take away the options.

to me this schwarber deal is a pissing contest. The man went back to what he knows, new approach, but is still being treated like he will never hit another lefty. Heyward is actually hitting lefties better than righties so far, so numbers only hold meaning sometimes. Why wouldn't schwarber had hit too? He is one for 2 with a walk against the lefty and only hitting .364 against righties. How can that not be seen as a pissing contest?

 

[fatbeard]

And posts like this prove that you are suckled on Theo's bag.

Pointing out your idiotic and dishonest takes on Epstein does not in any way mean that I am excusing his failures. It's just that one of us manages to keep things in the proper perspective.

1. When has Theo ever gone to the press about inside the clubhouse business? EVER?? He only started leaking this information this year.

Show your work.

2. Boston won with theo in 2013, finished in last place in 2014 and 2015. Let google be your friend and search worst boston free agent signings and Crawford and Ramirez are listed there, two out of the top 6. Not by genius know it all message board posters, but guys that get paid to write. The won in spite of Crawford like they won in spite of Heyward.

Re-read your last sentence. A smarter poster would've stopped writing after "they won," and realized the trap they just set for themselves. But you, of course, didn't.

3. Well, not everybody. I am pretty sure I wrote that you gave your ace, cy young winning, two no hitter pitching best hurler a take it or leave it offer the day before they wasted the signing on Darvish.

Paying for past performance is a brilliant front office strategy. Is that you, Ed Lynch? Say, how 'bout another roll in the hay with the desiccated corpse of Gary Gaetti? What could go wrong!

4. Give it time, you know, that same time we were supposed to give Theo when he got here, to find the talent, develop it and bring it to the major league roster.

No, no, no. You don't get to do that. You said Gleyber Torres was a superstar, as in now, because you were deliberately trying make the Chapman deal look bad when in reality it resulted in a fucking World Series. The World Series. The drought-breaker. The curse-ender. The one every breathing Cubs fan had waited for their entire lives. I don't care if Gleyber Torres becomes a perennial All-Star, that deal will still have been worth it. So unless you're prepared to show the board which combination of Cubs relievers were going to get the final 8 outs of Game 5, you can get the fuck out of here with your bullshit. Because the Cubs don't win the WS without trading Torres.

5. Playoff wins and titles are what define success.

It's too bad the Cubs under Epstein don't have any of that:

4 postseason appearances

19 playoff games won

1 Wild Card victory

3 NLDS victories

1 NLCS victory

1 World Series victory

So, can you name a team that's won more World Series' since 2015? Seriously, what standard are Epstein's Cubs failing to live up to here? Which other teams have been more successful than the Cubs? Get. The. Fuck. Outta. Here.

6. Well, to be as redundant as you are, playoff wins and titles are what define success. (The post was about his free agent choices numb nuts)

You literally wrote about his record in Boston and curse-breaking. So, again, get the fuck outta here with your "my post was only about free agent choices" bullshit.

You did not let me down, I knew I could count on you to prove you do not look at this like many others do, otherwise, why in the hell did Boston allow Theo to leave?

It's almost as if this topic has been written about extensively on a national level, and yet you remain stunningly ignorant. Fascinating and par for the course, all at the same time.

Epstein: If Tito stayed, I likely would've, too

Theo Epstein explains why the time was right to leave the Red Sox.

www.espn.com

 

[CSF77]

I'll post this pretty legit. If Q goes out and wins 20 games the fan base will forget Cease and Eloy.

My personal opinion is the trade looks bad not because of the trade in it self. The trade looks bad because it took from a system weakness.

What I mean is to date Theo and Jed have never drafted a major league quality pitcher.

Hendricks traded for.
Maples pre dates Theo.
Edwards traded for.
Strop traded for.
Arreta traded for.
Montgomery traded for.


The list goes on.

So regarding this pissing contest here. You 2 should step back and realize that the real problem was Theo's poor quality drafts. They went conservative on pitching. Cease fell on them because he was a TJ case and was a high risk and they would have normally never got him. Then they traded him away. As far as prospect quality. Underwood fell off as fast as he fell on the board. Kid from Mexico same thing. Alozay ditto. All are fringe prospect quality arms that evaluaters only give any respect until they stutter for the first time.

Cease was the exception . And the real problem was not trading Cease. It was the fact it has only been Cease to date.

I look at other teams like SD and TB et. And this is not the case. They do produce arms on a continual basis. So there is talent.

So why then?

Approach. Theo's fault
Analysis Theo's fault.
Development Theo's fault.
Trading away the only guy Theo's fault.

Everything falls on his head. If he was gaming more with the draft and going high risk and it came up short for what ever reason I can respect that. But when you draft garbage AAAA cap talent and just start inking other teams trash it is time for a new vision.

 

[fatbeard]

I'll post this pretty legit. If Q goes out and wins 20 games the fan base will forget Cease and Eloy.

My personal opinion is the trade looks bad not because of the trade in it self. The trade looks bad because it took from a system weakness.

What I mean is to date Theo and Jed have never drafted a major league quality pitcher.

Hendricks traded for.
Maples pre dates Theo.
Edwards traded for.
Strop traded for.
Arreta traded for.
Montgomery traded for.


The list goes on.

So regarding this pissing contest here. You 2 should step back and realize that the real problem was Theo's poor quality drafts. They went conservative on pitching. Cease fell on them because he was a TJ case and was a high risk and they would have normally never got him. Then they traded him away. As far as prospect quality. Underwood fell off as fast as he fell on the board. Kid from Mexico same thing. Alozay ditto. All are fringe prospect quality arms that evaluaters only give any respect until they stutter for the first time.

Cease was the exception . And the real problem was not trading Cease. It was the fact it has only been Cease to date.

I look at other teams like SD and TB et. And this is not the case. They do produce arms on a continual basis. So there is talent.

So why then?

Approach. Theo's fault
Analysis Theo's fault.
Development Theo's fault.
Trading away the only guy Theo's fault.

Everything falls on his head. If he was gaming more with the draft and going high risk and it came up short for what ever reason I can respect that. But when you draft garbage AAAA cap talent and just start inking other teams trash it is time for a new vision.

I'm confused as to what "problem" you're referring to. Accepting your assertion that Epstein and Hoyer have "never drafted a major league-quality pitcher," they have 3-4 World Series championships between them, spread over 12 years, depending on how you want to count the 2013 Red Sox. Clearly this "problem", if it exists, is not something that actually hinders their ability to repeatedly win World Series championships with different organizations.

So, how is it an actual "problem"?

 

[CSF77]

I'm confused as to what "problem" you're referring to. Accepting your assertion that Epstein and Hoyer have "never drafted a major league-quality pitcher," they have 3-4 World Series championships between them, spread over 12 years, depending on how you want to count the 2013 Red Sox. Clearly this "problem", if it exists, is not something that actually hinders their ability to repeatedly win World Series championships with different organizations.

So, how is it an actual "problem"?

Winning a world series for Boston has nothing to do with what is happening right now.

Winning in 2016 has nothing to do with what is happening right now.

I could just say he got hired and basically tanked year after year to get 1 pick per year in a 50 round draft.

So he sacrificed a full year to get 1 guy and didn't give a shit about the draft process. The mass was fail.

Cease was an exception to that rule but he was in TJ recovery and would have been a 1st round talent which they never go for.

Here is my take:.

Year 1 fail. Almora is a 4th OF. Rest were fail.
Year 2 2nd pick and went with obvious choice. Rest fail.
Year 3. Went again with the best hitter. Got him on discount to sign Cease who they traded away. Rest of the draft fail.
Year 4 Happ could end up another fail rest fail
Year 5. Lacked 2 picks. Bought them the series. So ya that is what the cost of a tital should cost.

We can go on but the jist is buy giving away drafts we are in this current state. 2016 by it self as a justification for Theo's inabity to produce 'system talent'. Not just taking the obvious choice hitter and striking out 49 times per yest.

If this was the NYY the fan base would be in a riot because they don't accept excuses.

 

[knoxville7]

I wouldnt call Almora a fail. Getting a guy that is a .280 hitter while playing gold glove CF isn’t anything to sneeze at.

 

[CSF77]

I wouldnt call Almora a fail. Getting a guy that is a .280 hitter while playing gold glove CF isn’t anything to sneeze at.

For a #6 pick it is far short of the talent you see

It was a my guy signing.

 

[beckdawg]

So yeah... this topic really went off the rails from my intentions.... I legit was just wanting to talk about the differences between building a bullpen heavy team vs spreading the money around and skimping there.... and this topic is not that....

 

[beckdawg]

For a #6 pick it is far short of the talent you see

It was a my guy signing.

Not really. If you get an everyday MLB player out of the pick you are satisfied. Keep in mind something like 40-50% of top 100 bats never become anything. Not to mention the fact that Almora likely has 3 win potential in him. Not saying here's there right now but you put his glove with what he did in the first half of last year then you basically have a 3 win player.

 

[CSF77]

And as far as any so called Joe Theo issue. If there is there should take be. If anything Joe has made what Theo has done legit. His first year was ahead
2nd year won it all. 3rd year kept a bad team in. 4th year injury plagued team that was in it to the end.

It would be a escape goat that would implode. The farm is one of the worse. So no future. Cap capped. Invested into under production.

If anything they should beg Joe to stay as I see it.

 

[CSF77]

Not really. If you get an everyday MLB player out of the pick you are satisfied. Keep in mind something like 40-50% of top 100 bats never become anything. Not to mention the fact that Almora likely has 3 win potential in him. Not saying here's there right now but you put his glove with what he did in the first half of last year then you basically have a 3 win player.

We will agree to disagree on that. I just see a 80 wRC+. Until he is not then he is not a bust.

 

[fatbeard]

Winning a world series for Boston has nothing to do with what is happening right now.

Winning in 2016 has nothing to do with what is happening right now.

I could just say he got hired and basically tanked year after year to get 1 pick per year in a 50 round draft.

So he sacrificed a full year to get 1 guy and didn't give a shit about the draft process. The mass was fail.

Cease was an exception to that rule but he was in TJ recovery and would have been a 1st round talent which they never go for.

Here is my take:.

Year 1 fail. Almora is a 4th OF. Rest were fail.
Year 2 2nd pick and went with obvious choice. Rest fail.
Year 3. Went again with the best hitter. Got him on discount to sign Cease who they traded away. Rest of the draft fail.
Year 4 Happ could end up another fail rest fail
Year 5. Lacked 2 picks. Bought them the series. So ya that is what the cost of a tital should cost.

We can go on but the jist is buy giving away drafts we are in this current state. 2016 by it self as a justification for Theo's inabity to produce 'system talent'. Not just taking the obvious choice hitter and striking out 49 times per yest.

If this was the NYY the fan base would be in a riot because they don't accept excuses.

You didn't address my point. Epstein and Hoyer have proven their ability to repeatedly win in spite of this "deficiency," so why does it matter? It's like you're complaining that Babe Ruth was a shitty baserunner. Who the fuck cares?

 

[beckdawg]

We will agree to disagree on that. I just see a 80 wRC+. Until he is not then he is not a bust.

I mean look at the rest of that draft. I'm not a fan of bWAR but they have an easy sort feature with drafts and that class looks like this

Correa - 18.1 bWAR pick 1-1
Seager - 13.8 pick 1-18
Russell - 12 pick 1-11
Gausman - 11.3 pick 1-4
Stroman - 10.5 pick 1-22
Haniger - 9.3 pick 1s-38
Piscotty - 7.3 pick 1s-36
Wacha - 7.2 pick 1-19
Zunino - 7.0 pick 1-3
Matt Olsen - 7 pick 1s-47
Buxton - 6.8 pick 1-2
McCullers - 6.3 pick 1s-41
Gallo - 5.2 pick 1s-39
Berrios - 4.2 pick 1s-32
Almora - 3.4 pick 1-6

So, labeling this pick a "bust" is frankly entirely silly. Almora is thus far one of the top 15 players in that draft. And other than Seager I don't really see a huge case of "what if" here. Almora may never be a super star but he's pretty much a lock to be a useful player in a highly sought after position(CF). You'll take that every day of the week especially in a draft that was this weak.