Interesting article on the Bears offense

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
How could it be when Kyle Long is a member? The Bears were INCREDIBLY fortuitous in avoiding injury last year...they were 2nd in fewest games lost to the Bills. Massie, Leno, Whitehair, Daniels...all healthy the entire season. Wow.

Its not an issue of "whoa...the Bears OL just keeps getting decimated by injury"...its an issue of the Bears OL production doesn't measure up to the accolades/ratings.

Agreed that Long makes it so it is difficult to ever have the best 5 on the field.

Kush over Daniels was artificial suppression.

We are on year 3 of Massie, Leno, Whitehair playing almost every single game [Massie missed 2] I think part of it is that they have durable players on the OL outside of 1 guy.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
Big playbook and Daniels was learning a new spot so I get it even though he's physically superior. Yup, Kush and Witzmann sucked but activating Long in place of Witzmann for the playoff game was also a mistake. Started the season weak and in poor condition and looked like a bowling ball at years end. Still our best option when healthy but not being able to work in the offseason again took its toll.

I do think we started our best players at the time in Sept. but it simply wasn't that good last year. This year should be a different story with the same players we ended the year with.

Whatever they get from Long this season is bonus. I do not have faith that he will stay healthy, guys do not magically get back to 100 after what he has gone through.

They need to get Coward ready to play RG this offseason. He has the natural athletic ability and power that Witzmann did not have and while I am sure there will be plays he is a mess on, the offset will be plays where he physically beats the DLmen, something Witzmann was not going to do.
 

Bearly

Dissed membered
Donator
Joined:
Aug 17, 2011
Posts:
41,060
Liked Posts:
23,370
Location:
Palatine, IL
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Adding to what I posted earlier about Mitch, I would prefer he not scramble as much and hope he has more pocket to throw from his year. Being able to do something doesn't make it a preference.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
Adding to what I posted earlier about Mitch, I would prefer he not scramble as much and hope he has more pocket to throw from his year. Being able to do something doesn't make it a preference.

I am okay with him moving. He seems to settle down his mechanics when he moves and is thinking a little less. It is kind of like Russell Wilson who makes some of his best throws when he is forced to work up in the pocket or break contain and move around a little.

Full on scrambles I could live with a reduction.
 

modo

Based
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
29,148
Liked Posts:
25,080
Location:
USA
I remember seeing that the OLine produced best when Long and Daniels were in at guards. I think the olin is thin but the top level talent can produce.

Howard was inefficient at 3.7 yards per....Cohen was decent enough. The sad part is that Trubisky had almost as many rushing yards as Cohen. I expect that to shift next year as Trubisky gets better in the pocket.

The Bears need to find a way to run up the middle.

Looking at Football Outsiders stats, the Bears were awful at second level yards. That can't stay the same if the offense is to succeed. Whether this is due to the oline or poor ability to make people miss at the second level, I don't know. Obviously the Bears felt they needed another guy that has lateral quickness. If the Bears do get better at second level yards it would seem that it may have been Howard.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
I remember seeing that the OLine produced best when Long and Daniels were in at guards. I think the olin is thin but the top level talent can produce.

Howard was inefficient at 3.7 yards per....Cohen was decent enough. The sad part is that Trubisky had almost as many rushing yards as Cohen. I expect that to shift next year as Trubisky gets better in the pocket.

The Bears need to find a way to run up the middle.

Looking at Football Outsiders stats, the Bears were awful at second level yards. That can't stay the same if the offense is to succeed. Whether this is due to the oline or poor ability to make people miss at the second level, I don't know. Obviously the Bears felt they needed another guy that has lateral quickness. If the Bears do get better at second level yards it would seem that it may have been Howard.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Hopefully, that is where we see the most significant upgrade from David Montgomery as his biggest strength is his contact balance and ability to make 2nd level defenders miss.

I tend to blame 2nd level running issues on the back, but some of it could easily be placed on the OL.

Most OL coaches will preach to do whatever needs to be done to get the RB to the 2nd level untouched and at top speed. No forced cuts in the backfield and no DLmen slowing them down.
 

modo

Based
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
29,148
Liked Posts:
25,080
Location:
USA
Hopefully, that is where we see the most significant upgrade from David Montgomery as his biggest strength is his contact balance and ability to make 2nd level defenders miss.

I tend to blame 2nd level running issues on the back, but some of it could easily be placed on the OL.

Most OL coaches will preach to do whatever needs to be done to get the RB to the 2nd level untouched and at top speed. No forced cuts in the backfield and no DLmen slowing them down.

Howard had 9 missed tackles last year.....not great. Over 92% of his yards were after initial contact so he was getting touched often. I think there was a combination of average oline play and his inability to break tackles that ended his career with the Bears.
 

modo

Based
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
29,148
Liked Posts:
25,080
Location:
USA
Not giving an extension to Kevin White hurts, tho. I heard he was a good blocker.

We are going to regret losing him when he gets 120 yards receiving next year.
 

modo

Based
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
29,148
Liked Posts:
25,080
Location:
USA
The Bears best OL was never really on the field together.

Why we even bothered to play Kush is beyond me, even with Daniels growing pains moments he was 100x better than Kush.

Witzmann at RG, while he did an admirable job for a street free agent, was a real weak link on the line. His run blocking was a huge issue most of the season.

How could it be when Kyle Long is a member? The Bears were INCREDIBLY fortuitous in avoiding injury last year...they were 2nd in fewest games lost to the Bills. Massie, Leno, Whitehair, Daniels...all healthy the entire season. Wow.

Its not an issue of "whoa...the Bears OL just keeps getting decimated by injury"...its an issue of the Bears OL production doesn't measure up to the accolades/ratings.

I would post the stat, but I can't find it anymore.....The Bears best yards per carry was with Long and Daniels at G. Windy was right that Long and Daniels didn't play together all year. A: Long is an injury machine and B: the Bears didn't seem fit to let Daniels start right away.

That being said. The Bears cannot rely on the oline to stay healthy again next year. Long is on the team and he hasn't managed to play over 10 games since 2015. And the Bears were lucky to have all healthy starters last year.

They have to find a way to produce with injuries on the oline....I guess they are trying to do that with drafting a "lateral specialist".....

When completely healthy, the Bears have a good oline.....many teams can say that, they just can't say all starters were healthy all year long.

Get better backup linemen or find a better running back that can deal with a less than average oline.
 

Starion

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 29, 2012
Posts:
4,217
Liked Posts:
2,669
Location:
Fort Myers, FL
I guess the link in the OP was too difficult for you to find?

Please post a link, stats, or something. Sounds a bit pessimistic and baseless otherwise.
Great? NO. Terrible? No.

yea..the Bears OL was terrible last year. This magical Notre Dame oline coach was overrated.

Perhaps we read it differently but I don't see where the author or stats say the OL specifically was to blame, just that they weren't very good, and predictable, just like I said. From the article itself...

  • The rushing attack was particularly bad between the tackles, but that’s where the Bears had most of their runs. 54% of their rush attempts were between the tackles, and they were consistently among the least efficient teams in the NFL at those carries in terms of yards/carry. I’m not sure if this is due to the offensive line or Jordan Howard. Howard had 170 of Chicago’s 240 carries between the tackles, and he averaged 3.3 yards/carry on those runs. Note that they were decent in success rate relative to their NFL peers, which indicates they ran it between the tackles a lot in short-yardage situations.
My point is to be optimistic about DM being a better fit than Howard, which can allow coaches to be more sly & expansive in plays called & ran, which also helps the OL.
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Nov 5, 2012
Posts:
4,300
Liked Posts:
2,527
Location:
NJ
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Penn State Nittany Lions
Thought the Bears had the OL whisperer on the staff. Don’t tell me people have lied!

No one lied. Some people thought he could get the O-line up beyond average - below average.

He still might; I have absolutely no idea if he will. But people were only wrong if they thought he would get them better in his first year. That's all.

CCS has its flaws, but liking a hire and believing in him is not really a flaw unless it colors their view so they interpret mediocrity as "getting the job done" and disallowing any criticism of Hiestand. THAT is when CCS posters deserve the snarky deconstructions that you attempted here.

But really; no one here has gone full white knight for him that I have seen
 

Bearly

Dissed membered
Donator
Joined:
Aug 17, 2011
Posts:
41,060
Liked Posts:
23,370
Location:
Palatine, IL
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Howard had 9 missed tackles last year.....not great. Over 92% of his yards were after initial contact so he was getting touched often. I think there was a combination of average oline play and his inability to break tackles that ended his career with the Bears.
Howard is a forward lean momentum runner. Our scheme until we ran more outside zone blocking towards the end of the year did not allow him the head of steam a one cut zone back likes. He could plant, lean and go but after that you didn't see any moves. He was a load back that could punish a D if you ran the O around him but he's a poor fit as the main back in this O.
 

Rory Sparrow

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 14, 2010
Posts:
4,850
Liked Posts:
3,735
Perhaps we read it differently but I don't see where the author or stats say the OL specifically was to blame, just that they weren't very good, and predictable, just like I said.

At least you found the link in the OP. Small miracles, and so forth.
 

Enasic

Who are the brain police?
Joined:
Mar 17, 2014
Posts:
13,290
Liked Posts:
9,713
No one lied. Some people thought he could get the O-line up beyond average - below average.

He still might; I have absolutely no idea if he will. But people were only wrong if they thought he would get them better in his first year. That's all.

CCS has its flaws, but liking a hire and believing in him is not really a flaw unless it colors their view so they interpret mediocrity as "getting the job done" and disallowing any criticism of Hiestand. THAT is when CCS posters deserve the snarky deconstructions that you attempted here.

But really; no one here has gone full white knight for him that I have seen

Nah, when he was first hired people thought he was a miracle worker. And the OL performed better before he got here, IMO. So for people to think he would even get them to perform better was wishful thinking. They regressed, or at best stayed the same.
 

Starion

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 29, 2012
Posts:
4,217
Liked Posts:
2,669
Location:
Fort Myers, FL
yea..the Bears OL was terrible last year. This magical Notre Dame oline coach was overrated.
Please post a link, stats, or something. Sounds a bit pessimistic and baseless otherwise.
Great? NO. Terrible? No.


Perhaps we read it differently but I don't see where the author or stats say the OL specifically was to blame, just that they weren't very good, and predictable, just like I said. From the article itself...
At least you found the link in the OP. Small miracles, and so forth.

What's with the attitude? I responded with dignity & respect to a snarky flame retort about me "not finding the OP's link" when it shows I did in fact read it and it did NOT contain what dweebs19 snarked about initially.

Sorry if that wasn't to your liking, but sor you to go out of your way with even further snarkiness?
No Rory. That's bad Internet manners.


giphy.gif
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Nov 5, 2012
Posts:
4,300
Liked Posts:
2,527
Location:
NJ
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Penn State Nittany Lions
Nah, when he was first hired people thought he was a miracle worker. And the OL performed better before he got here, IMO. So for people to think he would even get them to perform better was wishful thinking. They regressed, or at best stayed the same.


So you agree that no one lied? They were mistaken as to his capabilities in one year, yes? Cool, not sure how that negated my post but good.

Now when you say people thinking "he would even get them to perform better was wishful thinking", yes exactly. (which is different from lying which was what was claimed by who I was replying to)

I am willing to give him a failing (or maybe low passing) grade for year 1 while also willing to see what he does with the O-line in year 2. I will take your word that some here calling him a "miracle worker" based on the fact that this IS CCS after all, no surprise there, but I don't get the sense that those same posters are defending him irrationally now and making excuses for him, and I think that is PROGRESS in CCS ... unless those posters are just not here, that could be true too.
 

Visionman

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 28, 2017
Posts:
7,995
Liked Posts:
4,451
So you agree that no one lied? They were mistaken as to his capabilities in one year, yes? Cool, not sure how that negated my post but good.

Now when you say people thinking "he would even get them to perform better was wishful thinking", yes exactly. (which is different from lying which was what was claimed by who I was replying to)

I am willing to give him a failing (or maybe low passing) grade for year 1 while also willing to see what he does with the O-line in year 2. I will take your word that some here calling him a "miracle worker" based on the fact that this IS CCS after all, no surprise there, but I don't get the sense that those same posters are defending him irrationally now and making excuses for him, and I think that is PROGRESS in CCS ... unless those posters are just not here, that could be true too.
Remember, Hiestand was charged with completely changing the blocking scheme for our OL and helping the players learn and adapt to it, not just make a few tweaks to their form to make them better.

He could have worked a miracle with them last year, but we wouldn't be able to tell being on the outside looking in...
 

Rory Sparrow

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 14, 2010
Posts:
4,850
Liked Posts:
3,735
What's with the attitude? I responded with dignity & respect to a snarky flame retort about me "not finding the OP's link" when it shows I did in fact read it and it did NOT contain what dweebs19 snarked about initially.

Sorry if that wasn't to your liking, but sor you to go out of your way with even further snarkiness?
No Rory. That's bad Internet manners.


giphy.gif

Nope. You are beyond hope. Talking football with you has proven to be too arduous of a task.

We are talking about the Bears OL. There are links, stats, "base information" contained in the thread. People are commenting on this information. dweebs19 states his opinion that the Bears OL was terrible and the 'uptick' that was predicted under Hiestand never came. We can debate whether or not this is true...but that is the whole point! To talk football! How on earth do you classify dweebs' comment as "snark"? You of all people?! Then to ridiculously (rhetorically?) ask for a "link, stats, anything" when not only have those things been provided, they are the source of the discussion in the first place?
 

Outlaw Josey Cutler

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Nov 5, 2012
Posts:
4,300
Liked Posts:
2,527
Location:
NJ
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Penn State Nittany Lions
Remember, Hiestand was charged with completely changing the blocking scheme for our OL and helping the players learn and adapt to it, not just make a few tweaks to their form to make them better.

He could have worked a miracle with them last year, but we wouldn't be able to tell being on the outside looking in...

Remember, Hiestand was charged with completely changing the blocking scheme for our OL and helping the players learn and adapt to it, not just make a few tweaks to their form to make them better.

This I agree with and is the basis for why I am willing or at least ok with Hiestand having this coming year to show progress.

He could have worked a miracle with them last year, but we wouldn't be able to tell being on the outside looking in...

I have no idea of what an "internal miracle" would look like even from the inside that would also be ok with the poor stats happening AS this alleged "miracle" is occurring. Can you explain that a bit? Thanks
 

Top