IST: Cubs vs. Dodgers

TL1961

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I love Javy more than anyone.

But we lost today’s game due to an error at SS.

Flashy is nice.
Steady is better.
 

CSF77

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0-1 right now.

Happ got a hit...wow

Rea is still intriguing. 4K no BB. 2 IP. Still don't know what to make of him yet.
 

CSF77

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wow. pitcher decided to pitch around Russell with the bases juiced. Weird. BB 4 pitches.
 

fatbeard

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I love Javy more than anyone.

But we lost today’s game due to an error at SS.

Flashy is nice.
Steady is better.
It's not that Russell is the "steadier" defender, it's that he is the objectively superior defender.

At SS, Russell saves a run about every 7 games. Baez saves one every 19. Or, Russell is nearly three times better at generating DRS than Baez.
 

CSF77

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Russell 2-4 3RBI 1 IBB.

He is hitting. Right now that holds more value over any SS upg
 

SilenceS

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It's not that Russell is the "steadier" defender, it's that he is the objectively superior defender.

At SS, Russell saves a run about every 7 games. Baez saves one every 19. Or, Russell is nearly three times better at generating DRS than Baez.
LOL
 

SilenceS

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I love Javy more than anyone.

But we lost today’s game due to an error at SS.

Flashy is nice.
Steady is better.
We also won yesterday with his two out three run homer. Without him tying not, Heyward doesnt win it. When Russell can swing a bat consistently, I will talk about him.
 

anotheridiot

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It's not that Russell is the "steadier" defender, it's that he is the objectively superior defender.

At SS, Russell saves a run about every 7 games. Baez saves one every 19. Or, Russell is nearly three times better at generating DRS than Baez.
I dont know how you come up with this stuff.

How many outs has Javy got to just with his superior arm? How many balls does he get to that are simply ole'd by Russell? Its how many more out are gotten before more hitters can do more damage.

Pencil pushers can make any argument work in their favor.
 

chibears55

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Like I've been saying, Russell not that type of player where he just gonna get his job back on day 1 after his suspension..
And
Things are clicking well with the position players now, why mess with it
Plus
You're a fool if you dont think Javy defense at SS benefits the team more then him being at 2B

As far as Russell , Theo saying he may stay down longer and now Maddon..
I still think their gonna trade him eventually
 

CSF77

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Good arguement.

I think we need to see Russell every day to really get a solid argument. Right now he is hitting AAA pitching and taking walks.

If he is the .240 hitter again this is not even a discussion. If he is a .280/.380/.490 then the topic changes to is his steady play save more runs over the flash and gun approach.

So as of today it is not even a argument. Russell has to earn it.
 

fatbeard

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I dont know how you come up with this stuff.
I did not invent DRS.

How many outs has Javy got to just with his superior arm? How many balls does he get to that are simply ole'd by Russell? Its how many more out are gotten before more hitters can do more damage.
DRS accounts for this. Russell makes an out-of-zone play every 16 innings at SS. Baez makes one every 17.5 innings. Russell gets to more balls than Baez, not the other way around. Womp womp.

Pencil pushers can make any argument work in their favor.
Ah, the obligatory "the nerds are ruining baseball" line from you. Guess what? Every single front office in baseball has embraced analytics. Know who the last holdout was? Baltimore. The trash heap of MLB.

The war's over gramps. You lost.
 

CSF77

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I did not invent DRS.



DRS accounts for this. Russell makes an out-of-zone play every 16 innings at SS. Baez makes one every 17.5 innings. Russell gets to more balls than Baez, not the other way around. Womp womp.



Ah, the obligatory "the nerds are ruining baseball" line from you. Guess what? Every single front office in baseball has embraced analytics. Know who the last holdout was? Baltimore. The trash heap of MLB.

The war's over gramps. You lost.
The real argument is Russell's O.

Your arguement holds little value right now.

Point being Almora has a 18 wRC+ and is barley seeing action for it. Regardless of his DRS.

So spare us the whole holy Grail of D is King bull shit.

What it will come down to us is wRC+ is king. DRS is not.

If you have 2 equal O players DRS is a factor on who plays. It is also who is pitching. Sinker pitcher will mandate a better IF D then you are better off saving runs.

But as we are seeing Almora is not every day. No bat no play.

So don't post any front office BS logic when it is not true with this team. They are trying to win games and that means they need guys that hit.

Who is playing every day.

Baez, Contreras. Heyward. They are all raking. Who is not Schwarber and Almora. They are slumping.

Simple as that.

Bryant and Rizzo are getting preference IMO.
 

beckdawg

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It still seems like no one has answered my question here... why do people care so much? Like I haven't heard anyone make a peep about Bryant playing the outfield or Heyward playing CF rather than his typical position. How's that any different than Baez playing 2B? If the argument is that Baez is the better defensive SS then OK I get people's logic. I don't agree with it but I understand it. But talking like Baez can't move off SS because he's an MVP candidate or w/e is pretty asinine in that Bryant moves off his position when it suits the daily line up.

That's ultimately my take on the issue. I don't know how much Russell is going to play. If i had to throw a SWAG at it I'd argue he probably gets like 50% of the games if he is anything close to what he was as a hitter pre suspension. I also don't think you want Javy playing 160 games again. He's a high effort guy who's very likely to pick up some minor bumps and bruises just from his style of play. And the rest of the team is pretty shitty at SS defensively. Plus javy has played all 23 games so far. If he ends up at like 140-150 games it makes sense to slot russell in that way.

I guess I'm just sitting here wondering why it matters which of the two plays SS when Russell plays. Both are strong defenders. If the cubs think russell is better at SS then who the fuck cares? It's not like Baez is suddenly a terrible hitter because he moved to 2B. He played 699.2 innings at 2B last year and 462.2 at SS and was still 2nd in the MVP voting. Likewise, if the cubs choose to play Russell at 2B who cares? You have gold glove caliber 2B then. Where they play is irrelevant.

What's relevant is whether or not Russell hits. I know most don't have much faith there but I'd argue honestly people are missing the point with putting him on the roster. The point there being they look at it like how do you give him playing time when others are performing. I look at it like this. Russell hit .286/.358/.407 109 wRC+ from April-June last year and then started to get really banged up. Having Bote, Zobrist and Descalso IMO gives you depth to play them if and when he gets banged up. If you get that out of him be it at SS or 2B and add it to the rest of an already pretty good line up then you're looking at and even better team. And if Russell doesn't hit that well then you have a pretty valuable defensive replacement off your bench.

And I mean sure finding playing time for Zobrist and Descalso especially might be hard should Russell hit but they are going to go out and give you pro at bats however you use them. They'd both be very strong pinch hitters plus both can basically play all over the infield as well as LF and in Zobrist's case RF. So they are pretty ideal in double switch situations.
 

CSF77

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It still seems like no one has answered my question here... why do people care so much? Like I haven't heard anyone make a peep about Bryant playing the outfield or Heyward playing CF rather than his typical position. How's that any different than Baez playing 2B? If the argument is that Baez is the better defensive SS then OK I get people's logic. I don't agree with it but I understand it. But talking like Baez can't move off SS because he's an MVP candidate or w/e is pretty asinine in that Bryant moves off his position when it suits the daily line up.

That's ultimately my take on the issue. I don't know how much Russell is going to play. If i had to throw a SWAG at it I'd argue he probably gets like 50% of the games if he is anything close to what he was as a hitter pre suspension. I also don't think you want Javy playing 160 games again. He's a high effort guy who's very likely to pick up some minor bumps and bruises just from his style of play. And the rest of the team is pretty shitty at SS defensively. Plus javy has played all 23 games so far. If he ends up at like 140-150 games it makes sense to slot russell in that way.

I guess I'm just sitting here wondering why it matters which of the two plays SS when Russell plays. Both are strong defenders. If the cubs think russell is better at SS then who the fuck cares? It's not like Baez is suddenly a terrible hitter because he moved to 2B. He played 699.2 innings at 2B last year and 462.2 at SS and was still 2nd in the MVP voting. Likewise, if the cubs choose to play Russell at 2B who cares? You have gold glove caliber 2B then. Where they play is irrelevant.

What's relevant is whether or not Russell hits. I know most don't have much faith there but I'd argue honestly people are missing the point with putting him on the roster. The point there being they look at it like how do you give him playing time when others are performing. I look at it like this. Russell hit .286/.358/.407 109 wRC+ from April-June last year and then started to get really banged up. Having Bote, Zobrist and Descalso IMO gives you depth to play them if and when he gets banged up. If you get that out of him be it at SS or 2B and add it to the rest of an already pretty good line up then you're looking at and even better team. And if Russell doesn't hit that well then you have a pretty valuable defensive replacement off your bench.

And I mean sure finding playing time for Zobrist and Descalso especially might be hard should Russell hit but they are going to go out and give you pro at bats however you use them. They'd both be very strong pinch hitters plus both can basically play all over the infield as well as LF and in Zobrist's case RF. So they are pretty ideal in double switch situations.

That is the key point. If he is giving that production then this is a dead argument. But if he is pushing 80 wRC+ again then you have to weigh the value of playing him over Descansio vs RHP.

If you are talking a 114 wRC+ -5 DRS vs a 60 wRC+ +15 it is a fair argument if the rest of the line up is caring the load. Right now that is not the case.

This is really a current situation issue. With Rizzo and Bryant mired in a slump they can't afford to lose Bote and Descansio. It becomes pretty plain to see.

Descalso 114/Bote 131
Bryant 103
Rizzo 113
Baez 160
Heyward 161
Contreras 185
Zobrist 56/Almora 35
Schwarber 63/Zagunis 76

I could see a argument of demoting Zagunis.

Then do a jumpstart with Rizzo

So something like:

Rizzo 1B
Bryant RF
Heyward CF
Baez 2B
Contreras C
Descalso LF
Bote 3B
Russell SS

Something like that would be non traditional but based off of wRC+ it would work and can force AB's on Bryzzo. They both are over .360 OBA so they are potential runs.

That way they are reducing the impact of the slumping players.
 

fatbeard

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The real argument is Russell's O.

Your arguement holds little value right now.

Point being Almora has a 18 wRC+ and is barley seeing action for it. Regardless of his DRS.

So spare us the whole holy Grail of D is King bull shit.

What it will come down to us is wRC+ is king. DRS is not.

If you have 2 equal O players DRS is a factor on who plays. It is also who is pitching. Sinker pitcher will mandate a better IF D then you are better off saving runs.

But as we are seeing Almora is not every day. No bat no play.

So don't post any front office BS logic when it is not true with this team. They are trying to win games and that means they need guys that hit.

Who is playing every day.

Baez, Contreras. Heyward. They are all raking. Who is not Schwarber and Almora. They are slumping.

Simple as that.

Bryant and Rizzo are getting preference IMO.
I live in a world in which both Baez and Russell can be on the same field at the same time, preferably at their optimal defensive positions. Which one do you live in? Because you're speaking as if only one of them can be on the field at a time, and we're forced to choose between Baez's bat or Russell's glove. It's bizarre, because that's not the case.
 
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