IST: Cubs vs Rockies

[chibears55]

I took another look and while we had been looking at WAR incorrectly, the right way to sort that table is by Off where the Cubs land second in the NL to the Dodgers over that same period of time. Runs scored does not take into effect park factors. Sorting by wRC+ also puts them in 2nd to the Dodgers over those 3 plus years.

That cool..

But again im not saying their not a very good offense for the most part..
My whole point is that i wouldnt call them a potent one as sone here are calling them...
They can be better then most teams at scoring runs aversge per and offensive WAR but it doesn't make them a potent offense..

What theyve done the last 16 games is a norm for them the last couple years no matter the weather.
A potent offensive lineup dont struggle like that consistently throughout the year..


All im saying..

Good topic though with the discussion over it..
Even got the ghost of Silence to chime in with his weekly 1 liner..lol



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[fatbeard]

Im not..just ssying the 27 yanks may be a team you would describe as potent offensively ss they probably stayed somewhat consistent all year putting up runs..
Not banging for 3 or 4 games then flushing the toilet for a week as we seen them do so far this year and most of last year..

Just saying there a big difference from being potent and terrific or good..

Their not potent, they have holes and inconsistencies in their offense.

All im trying to say..


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What are the objective measures by which you differentiate a "potent" offense from a "terrific" offense from a "good" offense?

 

[CSF77]

The Cubs have the best offense in baseball, not just in the NL, in all of baseball since 2015.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.a...&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=&age=&filter=&players=0

You: "The Cubs offense isn't potent."

Stop being dumb.

Noticed that they were 21 in BA and 2 in OBA. That ties to timely hitting somewhat.

wRC+ they are #9. Astros lead there by a solid margin over baseball.

Honestly they are top 1/3 in O. I just see the Astros being the best team in baseball still

 

[CubsFaninMN]

You've got talent, peak production (i.e., capability) and consistent production. Most teams have a fair amount of talent, and a lot of teams can hit high peak production days. What escapes all but the best teams is the ability to maintain production consistently enough to win at least six out of ten games -- what it usually takes to make the post-season.

While all facets of the game feed into the W/L results, what we're speaking of here with the Cubs is not a peak production issue, nor a talent issue. You can argue that the Cubs have one of, if not the, most talented starting eight in MLB. And they are capable of putting up multiple five-plus-run innings, almost seemingly at whim.

But they will then go through periods, which do not seem to correlate to the overall talent of the pitching they are facing, where the self-same highly talented starting eight scratch for three to four hits and maybe one run. For three to five games in a row, or five games out of seven.

You can have five straight quality starts from your rotation, and lose four out of five with that kind of offensive production pattern. You can then get your starters shelled and pulled after pitching two to four innings, and win five out of six when you get into a hot streak.

In 2016, the club hit a major cold streak just before the all-star break, and both gave up a bunch of runs and stopped scoring that many. They also went into a mini-slump in the World Series, which got them squarely behind the 8-ball trailing the series 3-1 and putting them into a position where they could easily have blown the whole series. In 2017, they had extremely inconsistent offensive production for almost the entire first half, and then hit a major slump in the NLCS. Last year, the slump did blow the whole series.

No matter ho good this team is, if they cannot find a way to limit the dips to one or two game stretches, they will continue to be in danger of hitting a cold streak at just the wrong time that could do anything from blowing out a post-season series, as happened in last year's NLCS, to pushing them out of playoff contention entirely.

Short form: they gotta get more consistent.

 

[chibears55]

What are the objective measures by which you differentiate a "potent" offense from a "terrific" offense from a "good" offense?

As i stated above..

To me a "potent" offense is a team/lineup that is mostly consistent all year in producing runs..
Not talking just being able to bang 6 runs or more alot of the time but just by being able to put 3 to 5 on board consistently throughout the year without going in prolong team slumps..

Not saying theyll never get shutout or have a a bad week, just that it happens way less often then what youd see from a terrific/good offense...

A terrific/very good offense for me is a team that can break out the lumber at any given time but overall less consistent then a potent offense in scoring runs and have more shutouts/bad weeks throughout the year..
Like weve seen the cubs do the last 12 games.. bang out 43 runs in 4 games then struggle for 16 in the other 8..

Also.. i pointed out the 27 yankees because i believe they are what a potent offense would be and without looking im sure there aren't many teams that are even up to that standard..

So to call a team potent offensively, they really have to be as good as the 27 yankees

That all








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[SilenceS]

My head hurts. Thanks guys. Member berries are running rampant today


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[TC in Mississippi]

My head hurts. Thanks guys. Member berries are running rampant today


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Welcome to the Semantics Wars. They're terrific, or is that potent or maybe just very good?

 

[fatbeard]

As i stated above..

To me a "potent" offense is a team/lineup that is mostly consistent all year in producing runs..
Not talking just being able to bang 6 runs or more alot of the time but just by being able to put 3 to 5 on board consistently throughout the year without going in prolong team slumps..

Not saying theyll never get shutout or have a a bad week, just that it happens way less often then what youd see from a terrific/good offense...

A terrific/very good offense for me is a team that can break out the lumber at any given time but overall less consistent then a potent offense in scoring runs and have more shutouts/bad weeks throughout the year..
Like weve seen the cubs do the last 12 games.. bang out 43 runs in 4 games then struggle for 16 in the other 8..

None of these are objective measures. Do you understand the difference between a subjective standard and an objective one?

As i stated above..Also.. i pointed out the 27 yankees because i believe they are what a potent offense would be and without looking im sure there aren't many teams that are even up to that standard..

So to call a team potent offensively, they really have to be as good as the 27 yankees

That all

Only three teams in history have a higher wRC+ than the 1927 Yankees, none of them in the modern era. So you've basically created an offensive standard that only the greatest team in the history of baseball can live up to. I hope that, having phrased it that way now, you realize how silly you are being.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.a...0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=17,d

 

[brett05]

They did. They also had a ton of things go just right too as in both years they exceeded their Pythagorean record by 5 games. Basically their offense got hits at just the right time. That's usually not sustainable. What the Cubs did on the 5 game winning streak was kind of like that too but you wouldn't want to see it for a whole season.

Mine was more a point that pitching and defense can win still. I do not buy that it cannot.

 

[chibears55]

Only three teams in history have a higher wRC+ than the 1927 Yankees, none of them in the modern era. So you've basically created an offensive standard that only the greatest team in the history of baseball can live up to. I hope that, having phrased it that way now, you realize how silly you are being.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.a...0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=17,d

And that would be a potent lineup..

One that stands out highly above all the rest in baseball..

This cubs offense isnt that



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[fatbeard]

And that would be a potent lineup..

One that stands out highly above all the rest in baseball..

This cubs offense isnt that



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"In the modern history of American baseball, one team and one team only has had a potent lineup. All other lineups are, by definition, impotent."

 

[chibears55]

"In the modern history of American baseball, one team and one team only has had a potent lineup. All other lineups are, by definition, impotent."

Whatever..

You asked my definition of it and i gave it..

Doesn't mean im wrong or right..
It ok to have people disagree with ones thoughts and opinions on topics..

Potent
1. synonymsowerful, strong, mighty,
formidable, influential, dominant,
forceful;

Key word here is Dominant

Cubs offense isnt dominant

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[fatbeard]

Whatever..

You asked my definition of it and i gave it..

Doesn't mean im wrong or right..
It ok to have people disagree with ones thoughts and opinions on topics..

Potent
1. synonymsowerful, strong, mighty,
formidable, influential, dominant,
forceful;

Key word here is Dominant

Cubs offense isnt dominant

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What is the mean runs scored per game an offense must have to be 'dominant'?

 

[chibears55]

What is the mean runs scored per game an offense must have to be 'dominant'?

Look it obvious we have a different thought process on what a potent offensive line up is and a good offensive lineup is..

We can move on now


Let hope this potent lineup can bust out at least 4 runs today as their already down 3 nothing..

It 80 degees and hot so no excuses today ir is it we have to wait til July and Augest


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[CSF77]

I think the key is

#2 OBA
#21 BA

This is a team that is built for waiting for a pitch to drive. So they are not a small ball build. They take walks and drive in runs.

So if they are facing a strong command pitcher then that is where you start to see issues. The main source of OBA drops. They do not make up for it via singles/bunts.

Having 2 guys at the top batting near .300 this year changes the dynamic. That is why you keep status que on Almora/Baez.

Happ had too much swing and miss. And while fun Rizzo has been in a funk and shouldn’t be the everyday lead off.

 

[Ari Bear]

This team strikes out too much!

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[Ari Bear]

I think the key is

#2 OBA
#21 BA

This is a team that is built for waiting for a pitch to drive. So they are not a small ball build. They take walks and drive in runs.

So if they are facing a strong command pitcher then that is where you start to see issues. The main source of OBA drops. They do not make up for it via singles/bunts.

Having 2 guys at the top batting near .300 this year changes the dynamic. That is why you keep status que on Almora/Baez.

Happ had too much swing and miss. And while fun Rizzo has been in a funk and shouldn’t be the everyday lead off.

Beaz k's too much to keep at the top. 6th is more suitable for him.

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[fatbeard]

This team strikes out too much!

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They're only 20th in all of MLB in K% this year (in the good way). Expecting a high-HR lineup to get much better than that is just unrealistic.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.a...=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=9,d&page=1_50

 

[Parade_Rain]

This team that has went to the Final Four 3 straight years strikes out too much!

 

[CSF77]

Beaz k's too much to keep at the top. 6th is more suitable for him.

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6% BB. 25% SO. it was better hitting #8 where he would get pitched around and absorb more walks. I believe that he has fallen in this regard. Having Bryant behind him makes the pitcher attack the zone vs pitch around thus his numbers normalizing.