Joe Maddon's Job Security

kapooncha

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So Maddon let's Strop bat with bases loaded and 1 out and now Strop is injured. Nice job Joe, just really f'ing outstanding.
 

anotheridiot

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So Maddon let's Strop bat with bases loaded and 1 out and now Strop is injured. Nice job Joe, just really f'ing outstanding.
Yep, he was willing to let strop try to get more outs than he ever did in a game, probably throw 35 pitches. If anything, you tell the man to stand there and dont swing.

It was a bunch of head scratching. Pinch hit for Carrot top after he drove in Javy once already. Pull the Nat killer in Bote with the bases loaded. I am sure glad this is not the first time I am whining about Joes bonehead plays.

I guess there is no way that Javy bunted on his own either, it was a golden Maddon move with the NL RBI leader
 

CubsFaninMN

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Most of the shop talk is football where I’m at. Baseball is back burner and even then the guys talk NYY vs Red Sox or crappy SDP. Being separate from Cubs nation is nice IMO. Has more to do with my connections with childhood vs a sports obsession.

If it got that bad I would rather join a beer league and be a active part of my passion.
I went from being a pretty fair-weather fan to being an active baseball fan in the early 80's when I got into an APBA baseball league. That educated me beyond being solely a home-team fan with little actual data upon which to base my thoughts and theories. APBA is more than just a fantasy league set-up, as you actually play a full season schedule with the team you draft; it's role-playing, dice-and-boards type of play, but it makes you take into account all types of aspects of a player's game. As with any gaming representation, it simplifies various possible outcomes, but you can play with all advanced rules and get a good representative set of season stats out of any given player's card.

What this did for me was to appreciate not just the Cubs players, but all of the players at the MLB level. Makes it a ton easier to understand how any given team might perform at a base level, with no impact from the coaching staff. You can then get a good feel for the difference a given manager and his staff is making in getting the most out of a given set of players.

When you look at it from that perspective, it is easier to appreciate how Maddon has managed to get more out of the teams he's managed than the "average" MLB manager. Think of it as mWAR, the manager's wins above replacement. (Too bad it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to calculate mWAR...)

I'm personally convinced Joe has a much higher mWAR than most of the managers in the league right now. Certainly higher than Renteria. But remember that Epstein was convinced Renteria could take the club on up into a championship window. Had Maddon not suddenly become available, Renteria would have continued as Cubs manager. Ownership wasn't actively looking to replace him with some other guy who could bring it all home.

That said, I'm also convinced that, without Joe, this club would not have contended in 2015, and would have been looking at a WS window opening in 2016 and peaking around now. Joe advanced that timetable by about a year, over and above what Renteria would likely have been able to produce. And Theo was fine with Renteria.

That says to me that Maddon doesn't have to worry about his job security. I think he will leave this position when he wants to, not when Epstein wants him to.
 

chibears55

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I think it fair to say that most of the what the hell is Joe doing in the past 3 years has worked but for the better part this year it hasn't

Joe done a good job with managing his young players and keeping things in order between the veterans and young guys..

Problem with Joe has been his in game management, most of the time it been head scratcher decisions which his players have come through for the most part but like i said, this year not so much.
 

Diehardfan

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I went from being a pretty fair-weather fan to being an active baseball fan in the early 80's when I got into an APBA baseball league. That educated me beyond being solely a home-team fan with little actual data upon which to base my thoughts and theories. APBA is more than just a fantasy league set-up, as you actually play a full season schedule with the team you draft; it's role-playing, dice-and-boards type of play, but it makes you take into account all types of aspects of a player's game. As with any gaming representation, it simplifies various possible outcomes, but you can play with all advanced rules and get a good representative set of season stats out of any given player's card.

What this did for me was to appreciate not just the Cubs players, but all of the players at the MLB level. Makes it a ton easier to understand how any given team might perform at a base level, with no impact from the coaching staff. You can then get a good feel for the difference a given manager and his staff is making in getting the most out of a given set of players.

When you look at it from that perspective, it is easier to appreciate how Maddon has managed to get more out of the teams he's managed than the "average" MLB manager. Think of it as mWAR, the manager's wins above replacement. (Too bad it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to calculate mWAR...)

I'm personally convinced Joe has a much higher mWAR than most of the managers in the league right now. Certainly higher than Renteria. But remember that Epstein was convinced Renteria could take the club on up into a championship window. Had Maddon not suddenly become available, Renteria would have continued as Cubs manager. Ownership wasn't actively looking to replace him with some other guy who could bring it all home.

That said, I'm also convinced that, without Joe, this club would not have contended in 2015, and would have been looking at a WS window opening in 2016 and peaking around now. Joe advanced that timetable by about a year, over and above what Renteria would likely have been able to produce. And Theo was fine with Renteria.

That says to me that Maddon doesn't have to worry about his job security. I think he will leave this position when he wants to, not when Epstein wants him to.
Yeah, this year in particular. With all the crap he's had to deal with....the injuries, ridiculous weather, horrendous batting slumps, poor FA signings and the team's inability to produce pitching from their system.....still, they have the NL's best record. 9/15/18...25 games over .500 and in position to be where they want to be.
 

kapooncha

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Yeah, this year in particular. With all the crap he's had to deal with....the injuries, ridiculous weather, horrendous batting slumps, poor FA signings and the team's inability to produce pitching from their system.....still, they have the NL's best record. 9/15/18...25 games over .500 and in position to be where they want to be.
Well it would help if Joe wasn't injuring his own players.
 

CubsFaninMN

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I think it fair to say that most of the what the hell is Joe doing in the past 3 years has worked but for the better part this year it hasn't

Joe done a good job with managing his young players and keeping things in order between the veterans and young guys..

Problem with Joe has been his in game management, most of the time it been head scratcher decisions which his players have come through for the most part but like i said, this year not so much.
I hate to say this, my friend, but the head-scratching part is mostly in your perceptions. A majority of people, and I think especially a majority of the posters here, are seeing the rationale for Joe's decisions a lot more clearly than you are.

I don't blame you for making the judgments you're making, based on how you're scratching your head over decisions that most of us can understand and agree with. Whether the players can execute them or not.

Please remember that a management call that the player doesn't execute is mostly a problem with the player, not the manager making the call. Unless you can document that Joe is consistently asking his players to execute plays that he *knows* the players can't execute, then it's really not on Joe.

Scratch your head as to why, on occasion, Joe asks Jonnie Lester to bunt and Jon can't get the bunt down. Are you scratching your head as to why Joe asked Jonnie to bunt? Or are you scratching your head as to why a very good bunter failed on this one occasion?

Hint: It's better to select the latter. That way, you'll start to appreciate that the players are human, and they are playing a game where you can go to the Hall of Fame for failing to execute anywhere from 10% of the time (on defense) to 70% of the time (on offense).

You fail more than you succeed in baseball, especially at the plate and on the mound. So, just because a player fails to execute one of Joe's calls doesn't necessarily mean the call was bad. It usually just means that baseball is hard, and it's really, really hard to execute even the best game plan.

So, the next time you scratch your head, at least please consider that Joe's call might have been good, the player(s) just failed to execute it well enough to produce the desired result... :)
 

chibears55

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I hate to say this, my friend, but the head-scratching part is mostly in your perceptions. A majority of people, and I think especially a majority of the posters here, are seeing the rationale for Joe's decisions a lot more clearly than you are.

I don't blame you for making the judgments you're making, based on how you're scratching your head over decisions that most of us can understand and agree with. Whether the players can execute them or not.

Please remember that a management call that the player doesn't execute is mostly a problem with the player, not the manager making the call. Unless you can document that Joe is consistently asking his players to execute plays that he *knows* the players can't execute, then it's really not on Joe.

Scratch your head as to why, on occasion, Joe asks Jonnie Lester to bunt and Jon can't get the bunt down. Are you scratching your head as to why Joe asked Jonnie to bunt? Or are you scratching your head as to why a very good bunter failed on this one occasion?

Hint: It's better to select the latter. That way, you'll start to appreciate that the players are human, and they are playing a game where you can go to the Hall of Fame for failing to execute anywhere from 10% of the time (on defense) to 70% of the time (on offense).

You fail more than you succeed in baseball, especially at the plate and on the mound. So, just because a player fails to execute one of Joe's calls doesn't necessarily mean the call was bad. It usually just means that baseball is hard, and it's really, really hard to execute even the best game plan.

So, the next time you scratch your head, at least please consider that Joe's call might have been good, the player(s) just failed to execute it well enough to produce the desired result... :)
LMFAO

If you and others on here haven't been thinking what the hell is he doing for a chunk of his decisions ..

Well to be nice, ill just say you all are on a small island

All you need to do is listen to the radio, watch local sports talk show, read other message boards, etc etc etc and youll find a ton of people echoing pretty much what i posted..

So, my guess is your trying to hard to fit in with the a couple knuckleheads on here..

My advice, just be yourself, like you were when you first started posting here..

Go Cubs
 

jooo83

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Joe does a lot of things well but he is far from an elite strategist. That shouldn't be debated. Too many of his supports act like he is beyond reproach. For example, it is very strange that some fans give him a pass for the Strop injury. You can still support Joe and admit he made a really bad mistake.
 

Parade_Rain

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LMFAO

If you and others on here haven't been thinking what the hell is he doing for a chunk of his decisions ..

Well to be nice, ill just say you all are on a small island

All you need to do is listen to the radio, watch local sports talk show, read other message boards, etc etc etc and youll find a ton of people echoing pretty much what i posted..

So, my guess is your trying to hard to fit in with the a couple knuckleheads on here..

My advice, just be yourself, like you were when you first started posting here..

Go Cubs
You're telling him to listen to people on the radio? Lulz. Those people are there to say things that get ratings and the pay isn't all that good. Most of them aren't that bright and try to be a jack of all trades for all sports. You should ask yourself what a guy like Bernstein knows about baseball? Nothing. What team has he managed? Can he coach tee ball?
 

chibears55

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You're telling him to listen to people on the radio? Lulz. Those people are there to say things that get ratings and the pay isn't all that good. Most of them aren't that bright and try to be a jack of all trades for all sports. You should ask yourself what a guy like Bernstein knows about baseball? Nothing. What team has he managed? Can he coach tee ball?
You are definitely right about the radio guys..

My point was, he singled me out like i was prerty much the only one who thought that..

I was pointing out to him that, it all over the local tv radio etc
Not just by media people but fans too

Joe in game decisions has pretty much been questioned and a hot topic since the 2016 postseason

Im not not sure how he hasn't noticed that, but like i said..
Seems to me like he was trying hard to be liked by some knuckleheads on here
 

Diehardfan

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You're telling him to listen to people on the radio? Lulz. Those people are there to say things that get ratings and the pay isn't all that good. Most of them aren't that bright and try to be a jack of all trades for all sports. You should ask yourself what a guy like Bernstein knows about baseball? Nothing. What team has he managed? Can he coach tee ball?
LOL...Thanks for taking the hit and actually reading his posts, saves me removing him from ignore. Radio, TV and don't forget Twitter...another bottomless pit of misinformation. The guy's next original thought will be his first.

Hey, what happened to that "great" forum he found where he talked baseball with everyone? Bwahahaha
 

fatbeard

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I think it fair to say that most of the what the hell is Joe doing in the past 3 years has worked but for the better part this year it hasn't

Joe done a good job with managing his young players and keeping things in order between the veterans and young guys..

Problem with Joe has been his in game management, most of the time it been head scratcher decisions which his players have come through for the most part but like i said, this year not so much.
Hasn't worked? They have the best record in their league this year despite near-season long injuries to their best SP and position player. And despite all the other injuries and all the other bombs like Chatwood. This year was probably Maddon's finest performance given what he had to deal with.
 

CubsFaninMN

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Hasn't worked? They have the best record in their league this year despite near-season long injuries to their best SP and position player. And despite all the other injuries and all the other bombs like Chatwood. This year was probably Maddon's finest performance given what he had to deal with.
This is why I told him that, if he thinks a majority of Joe's decisions this year haven't worked and are head-scratchers, that is his perception of what's happening. It's about execution, and there have been times this year that the team has not executed well. But Joe's management has taken that into account and he's made calls that, while they seemed unusual at the time, have been made to get the best chance of a good result with the team he has to work with.

Sorry, 55; I'm nit singling out and pointing fingers. I know other people are just as mystified and you get a lot of "moral support" for your general "OMG they failed to execute that, if they can't do any better than that we're done for!" point of view from radio pundits who are paid to lie and create division. For the sake of ratings.

I'm not picking on you, or being mean. You have a great spirit, and you do make many insightful observations. That's why I don't have you on ignore, unlike Ommy, who never says anything that has any value whatsoever. I'm just trying to encourage you to see that baseball is a lot like life, and individual failure moments are extremely common in baseball. You, more than most posters here, seem to overreact to these failure moments, and immediately start looking for someone to blame for whatever the failure is that you perceive.

I guess I'm just saying that, if there was someone sitting on the internet and judging what you do in your job and home life every day, questioning your judgments, and proclaiming you are a complete failure every time you go into the kitchen and then forget what you went in there for.... you would maybe see that no one is perfect, and it's not reasonable to react to each failure moment by demanding to know who to blame for it.

Beyond that, I really don't know what else to say. I appreciate your spirit, but would like to see you (and several others, you're not alone) just sort of stop doing the "They got a hit! Why the fuck did Theo ever sign that pitcher, or Joe ever put him on the mound?" posts. When it's just one base hit.

Again, a lot of people are simply disagreeing with your assertion that Maddon's calls have failed a lot this year, moreso than in the past three years. If that's how it looks to you, all I can say is that you're not seeing what's really happening. The numbers say you're wrong. You can argue that the numbers are wrong somehow, but that's hard to do. And arguing from a set of sweeping, unsupported, emotional statements like "for the better part of this year <what the hell Joe is doing> hasn't <worked>" is just too flawed. You can't have a discussion based on that statement, other than to repeat over and over that you are arguing from a false assumption.

What part of best overall offense in the NL reflects Joe's failures? Or were you so spoiled by 2016 that, unless the Cubs are 35 games up in the division in mid-September, someone must be fucking up horribly and let's start pointing fingers at who is fucking up, so we can fire his ass?

Think that's not what this thread is about? Look at the title...
 

Diehardfan

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This is why I told him that, if he thinks a majority of Joe's decisions this year haven't worked and are head-scratchers, that is his perception of what's happening. It's about execution, and there have been times this year that the team has not executed well. But Joe's management has taken that into account and he's made calls that, while they seemed unusual at the time, have been made to get the best chance of a good result with the team he has to work with.

Sorry, 55; I'm nit singling out and pointing fingers. I know other people are just as mystified and you get a lot of "moral support" for your general "OMG they failed to execute that, if they can't do any better than that we're done for!" point of view from radio pundits who are paid to lie and create division. For the sake of ratings.

I'm not picking on you, or being mean. You have a great spirit, and you do make many insightful observations. That's why I don't have you on ignore, unlike Ommy, who never says anything that has any value whatsoever. I'm just trying to encourage you to see that baseball is a lot like life, and individual failure moments are extremely common in baseball. You, more than most posters here, seem to overreact to these failure moments, and immediately start looking for someone to blame for whatever the failure is that you perceive.

I guess I'm just saying that, if there was someone sitting on the internet and judging what you do in your job and home life every day, questioning your judgments, and proclaiming you are a complete failure every time you go into the kitchen and then forget what you went in there for.... you would maybe see that no one is perfect, and it's not reasonable to react to each failure moment by demanding to know who to blame for it.

Beyond that, I really don't know what else to say. I appreciate your spirit, but would like to see you (and several others, you're not alone) just sort of stop doing the "They got a hit! Why the fuck did Theo ever sign that pitcher, or Joe ever put him on the mound?" posts. When it's just one base hit.

Again, a lot of people are simply disagreeing with your assertion that Maddon's calls have failed a lot this year, moreso than in the past three years. If that's how it looks to you, all I can say is that you're not seeing what's really happening. The numbers say you're wrong. You can argue that the numbers are wrong somehow, but that's hard to do. And arguing from a set of sweeping, unsupported, emotional statements like "for the better part of this year <what the hell Joe is doing> hasn't <worked>" is just too flawed. You can't have a discussion based on that statement, other than to repeat over and over that you are arguing from a false assumption.

What part of best overall offense in the NL reflects Joe's failures? Or were you so spoiled by 2016 that, unless the Cubs are 35 games up in the division in mid-September, someone must be fucking up horribly and let's start pointing fingers at who is fucking up, so we can fire his ass?

Think that's not what this thread is about? Look at the title...
You will always lose a few small battles when trying to win the war. That's one thing Joe Maddon gets. You're gonna lose at least 60 games no matter how good you are...in a 162 game schedule, you have to make some sacrifices...pick your spots, so to speak. Has he made some questionable moves? Sure he has but if you listen to him afterwards, he always has a sensible reason why he does things. He has information at his fingertips that we do not.
 

TC in Mississippi

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Hasn't worked? They have the best record in their league this year despite near-season long injuries to their best SP and position player. And despite all the other injuries and all the other bombs like Chatwood. This year was probably Maddon's finest performance given what he had to deal with.
I think the comparison you have to make is with the Nationals who were considered the slightly better team to the Cubs going into the season. Both teams were hit hard with injuries and both teams had some unexpected attrition. The difference is that the Nats didn't lose a TOR starter for virtually the entire season, a former MVP and pre-season best player for over two months in total and their lockdown closer for 2 1/2 months in total including from July to mid September. Yet the Cubs are going to win 95 games and the Nationals will win about 82-83. Are you really going to listen to people saying Joe has had a bad season at manager given those facts? Yeah, didn't think so.
 

chibears55

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I think the comparison you have to make is with the Nationals who were considered the slightly better team to the Cubs going into the season. Both teams were hit hard with injuries and both teams had some unexpected attrition. The difference is that the Nats didn't lose a TOR starter for virtually the entire season, a former MVP and pre-season best player for over two months in total and their lockdown closer for 2 1/2 months in total including from July to mid September. Yet the Cubs are going to win 95 games and the Nationals will win about 82-83. Are you really going to listen to people saying Joe has had a bad season at manager given those facts? Yeah, didn't think so.
Nobody saying he had a "bad" season at managing..

Saying alot of his what the hell are you doing type of decisions this year hasn't worked out as much this year as it has in the past..

The record is based more on the talent he has on the field more then the decisions he makes..

Ill put it this way...

I think it fair to say that the talent/players has won the majority of the 87 wins to date despite some of Joe questionable ingame decisions and that some to most of Joe ingame decisions has cost them from winning more games to date..

Can we agree with that?
 
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