Lee Smith HOF

brett05

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Ryan Zimmerman: .279/.344/.477 . wrc+ 117
Harold Baines: .289/.356/.465 wrc+ 119

For god sakes, Harold Baines has no business in the HOF. He had ONE year of 3+ fWAR. One.

There is no logical argument for Harold Baines being a HOF. He was a good hitter that was never elite in the league. If you claim Baines should be in then you open the door to about, no lie, 30-40 hitters who are not in the HOF.
Baines was ultra close to auto bid with 3000 hits. If not for work stoppage he makes it. At retirement he was the best DH the league had. Yes, I have him in the Hall for that.
 

DanTown

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Baines was ultra close to auto bid with 3000 hits. If not for work stoppage he makes it. At retirement he was the best DH the league had. Yes, I have him in the Hall for that.
Baines had 11k+ PA to get to his 2800 hits. I mean that's just longevity and again, it's not like 3K hits is an auto bid.
 

FirstTimer

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Baines was ultra close to auto bid with 3000 hits. If not for work stoppage he makes it. At retirement he was the best DH the league had. Yes, I have him in the Hall for that.
You keep saying this. It's not tru

Edgar Martinez became a full time DH in 1995. He retired three years after Baines in 2004.

From 1995-2001 Edgar did the following:
5X All Star
5x DH of the Year Award
3x Silver Slugger
Lead League in OBP 3x
1x Batting Title
1x Lead League in RBI's
1x Lead league in OPS
1x Led League in Runs
1x Lead League in Doubles
1x Lead League in OPS+
Finished 3rd in the MVP voting in 1995, 6th in 2000.
Slashed: .329/.446/.574 (OPS of 1.020' OPS+ 164)

Edgar Martinez was easily better and more accomplished than Baines when Baines retired.

There is no discussion.

After Baines retired Martinez put up three more seasons of regression numbers. He was meh. He retired then they immediately named the DH award after him. Stop making it seem like Martinez played for another 5 seasons at an elite level to "pass" Baines after Baines retired. He didn't.

Martinez last three years after Baines retired:
.278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger.

These were not good years for Edgar given his past. Ironically, Edgar's regression seasons almost perfectly match the "average" Baines season. (.289/.356/.465 OPS of .820 OPS+ of 121)

So even Edgar's "down seasons" are pretty much better or perfectly on par with Baines average season.

You're, as usual, intellectually bankrupt.


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I love brett's "theory" that three seasons (<400 games) of Edgar doing this .278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger after Baines retired catapulted Edgar past Baines on all-time DH lists. Edgar's final season(2004) was terrible. He only played 97 games in 2002. His 2003 was really good..but that's pretty much it.e.
 
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FirstTimer

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Edgar Martinez became a full time DH in 1995. He retired three years after Baines in 2004.

From 1995-2001 Edgar did the following:
5X All Star
5x DH of the Year Award
3x Silver Slugger
Lead League in OBP 3x
1x Batting Title
1x Lead League in RBI's
1x Lead league in OPS
1x Led League in Runs
1x Lead League in Doubles
1x Lead League in OPS+
Finished 3rd in the MVP voting in 1995, 6th in 2000.
Slashed: .329/.446/.574 (OPS of 1.020' OPS+ 164)

Edgar Martinez was easily better and more accomplished than Baines when Baines retired.

There is no discussion.

After Baines retired Martinez put up three more seasons of regression numbers. He was meh. He retired then they immediately named the DH award after him. Stop making it seem like Martinez played for another 5 seasons at an elite level to "pass" Baines after Baines retired. He didn't.

Martinez last three years after Baines retired:
.278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger.

These were not good years for Edgar given his past. Ironically, Edgar's regression seasons almost perfectly match the "average" Baines season. (.289/.356/.465 OPS of .820 OPS+ of 121)

So even Edgar's "down seasons" are pretty much better or perfectly on par with Baines average season.

You're, as usual, intellectually bankrupt.


---------------------------------------------------

I love brett's "theory" that three seasons (<400 games) of Edgar doing this .278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger after Baines retired catapulted Edgar past Baines on all-time DH lists. Edgar's final season(2004) was terrible. He only played 97 games in 2002. His 2003 was really good..but that's pretty much it.

....
 

FirstTimer

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I've made 3 others in this thread that got deleted throughout the day, bub. And you know it.
Uhh nope. I was out of pocket all day in Chicago for work and after about 11am didn't have internet access and got back tonight. Saw a "double post" and deleted it. Keep on with this though. It's entertaining.
 

FirstTimer

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Interesting note on Smith:

Smith is understandable. He wouldn't have been my first choice on this 10-person ballot -- no general manager in the 1980s or 1990s would have traded Smith for Will Clark or Orel Hershiser -- but he did retire in 1997 as the all-time saves leader and still ranks third behind Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman. During his 15 years on the baseball writers' ballot, Smith peaked at 50.6 percent of the vote in 2012. Every player who received at least 50 percent eventually was elected to the Hall of Fame except for Gil Hodges (and five players on the current ballot). Smith's road was going to lead to Cooperstown at some point, and it turns out to be 2019.
 

brett05

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Baines had 11k+ PA to get to his 2800 hits. I mean that's just longevity and again, it's not like 3K hits is an auto bid.
Yes it is. longevity has not been a penalty in the past (sutton and neikro are two that come to mind)
 

Rory Sparrow

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Baines had 11k+ PA to get to his 2800 hits. I mean that's just longevity and again, it's not like 3K hits is an auto bid.
Yeah, I've heard the phrase "Baines was a compiler", but I'm not even sure that is correct because he didn't really 'compile' anything of note. Its not like Baines retired and we were surprised that his counting stats were so high...it would be impossible for a corner outfielder to have 11000 plate appearances and not have decent counting stats. Its not like Baines surpassed a HOF statistical milestone (like Don Sutton) and we have to explain/justify how it actually happened.

2800 hits on its own doesn't stand out. The only noteworthy bit in the case of Baines is how many plate appearances it took him to accumulate those hits. Baines was durable and was aided immensely by playing DH in the AL. Good for him.

The ultimate compiler IMO was Eddie Murray. He had a couple years in the early 80's finishing in the top 3 MVP voting when the Orioles were good, but for the most part was never a serious MVP candidate in any given year. The only time he led the league in any major stat was in the strike-shortened 1981 season, when he led the AL in both HRs (21) and RBI (78). He made some All-Star games in his late-20's prime and had 8 total appearances in 21 years; a nice total but not really an ASG 'mainstay'. He won a few Gold Gloves early in his career at 1B, but he wasn't known as a great fielder. The most HRs he hit in a season was 33. Yet when Eddie Murray retired, he was one of three players in MLB history to have 3000 hits and 500 HRs...Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, EDDIE MURRAY. It was the most surprising baseball stat I've ever heard.

The amazing thing about Harold Baines is he played 22 years as a corner OF (or a DH), and he never had a season where he finished in the top 8 in MVP voting. He led the AL in slugging in 1984, but that is the only time he led the league in anything. His resume` is completely devoid of 'excellence'...just an indefensible HOF selection.
 
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