NBA Final Four 'team building', Sixers/Hinkie/Process & Bulls

[Rory Sparrow]

Heard something interesting on the radio...of the 4 teams remaining, only Kevin Durant was a top 5 pick.

Sam Hinkie's "Process" with the 76ers has yet to result in any sustained postseason success (in the East, no less), despite having two #1s and a #3 overall pick.

I always thought Hinkie was a fraud, as no one could explain what exactly Hinkie was doing differently, as tanking was big news back in 1984 with the Rockets trying to get Hakeem. I guess Hinkie just 'tanked more', which also requires an MBA from Stanford and so forth. Hinkie did a very poor job in constructing the team, as the Sixers are trying to "out-athlete" opposing teams in an era when shooting is premium. Even with these athletes, they aren't very good on defense, either. Perhaps that is because their coach Brett Brown is terrible, perhaps it is because Embiid and Simmons are overrated. Perhaps it is because JJ Reddick simply has to be on the floor because no one else on the roster can hit from the outside. Regardless, the Sixer pieces don't really mesh.

Milwaukee is a team of role players around Giannis, who was a 15th overall pick. Toronto has an ick roster and Leonard, who was a 15th overall pick and available on the open market. Curry was a 7th, Thompson 11th, Green a 2nd round pick for GS.

My point is that Hinkie's process of tank for top picks, get top athletes doesn't really work in today's NBA. You can find good players later in the 1st round, and you need a backcourt that can shoot. The Bulls seem to be following the Sixers model instead of looking at the overall picture of the NBA, which IMO is wrong. But the perhaps it is too strong a suggestion to think that the Bulls have a plan of any kind at this point.

 

[zack54attack]

Well, when you draft 2 guys No. 1 overall who cant shoot a jumper (Fultz, Simmons), shit happens.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Sixers lost on a buzzer beater that bounced around 4 times...could've easily been them who advanced and then what would people be saying about the process?

Downplay their strategy all you like, they're still better off than the Bulls right now.

But really it comes down to your draft picks panning out. Giannis and Kawhi ended up being crazy value picks at 15, but it's not like Embiid or Simmons are awful players either. Fultz was a whiff, but that could happen to anyone. There's no guarantee your pick will be a superstar whether you draft them #1 or #60. And we've seen great players come from those spots and everywhere in between.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Sixers lost on a buzzer beater that bounced around 4 times...could've easily been them who advanced and then what would people be saying about the process?

Nothing different...probably something along the lines of "Sixers almost lost to a team with an even worse recent postseason history than themselves and whose roster is so thin that Fred VanVleet sees significant minutes".

Did you watch the series? Not sure how Leonard potentially missing a buzzer beater (and somehow Toronto losing by a score of 90-90) changes the fact that the Sixers are poor defensively, have one shooter on the roster, and haven't done much in a weak East.

Downplay their strategy all you like, they're still better off than the Bulls right now.

If being better off than the Bulls right now proves the strategy to be worthy, then every team in the NBA other than the Suns has a winning strategy.

But really it comes down to your draft picks panning out.

Not really what I am saying. Yes that helps, but its also about roster construction, IMO.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

I guess I'm confused as to how the Bulls are following the Sixers model, other than them being very bad. There are a lot of bad teams in the NBA, but I wouldn't say they are following any type of model.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

I guess I'm confused as to how the Bulls are following the Sixers model, other than them being very bad. There are a lot of bad teams in the NBA, but I wouldn't say they are following any type of model.

True...the model is they have been tanking for several years and have a bad coach. They can't shoot from the outside or play defense, either.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

True...the model is they have been tanking for several years and have a bad coach. They can't shoot from the outside or play defense, either.

Yeah, but the Bulls have also been proven bad at tanking. So while the hope has always been to land one of those top 2-3 picks, they've been in the latter half of the lottery and (poorly, it would seem) to play that development game.

They are nailing the bad coach part really well.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

Yeah, but the Bulls have also been proven bad at tanking. So while the hope has always been to land one of those top 2-3 picks, they've been in the latter half of the lottery and (poorly, it would seem) to play that development game.

True. I figure the year the Bulls finally get the #1 pick is the year some stiff like Meyers Leonard is the consensus best player available.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

When I wear my NBA conspiracy hat I know that the Knicks are getting Zion, but I'm hoping that since the Bulls have never really given the appearance of full-on tanking like others that Silver rewards them with the #2.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Nothing different...probably something along the lines of "Sixers almost lost to a team with an even worse recent postseason history than themselves and whose roster is so thin that Fred VanVleet sees significant minutes".

Did you watch the series? Not sure how Leonard potentially missing a buzzer beater (and somehow Toronto losing by a score of 90-90) changes the fact that the Sixers are poor defensively, have one shooter on the roster, and haven't done much in a weak East.



If being better off than the Bulls right now proves the strategy to be worthy, then every team in the NBA other than the Suns has a winning strategy.




Not really what I am saying.

No I didn't watch the series. Haven't really watched any playoff games in full save for one GSW/Hou game. Sixers have been poor defensively, I won't argue. They absolutely should be better than Toronto.

It is true that they only have one dedicated shooter in Reddick, yes. Harris came over shooting 43% from 3 before the trade, only shot 35% in the playoffs. Oh well. Butler and Embiid can shoot, but they're not like Reddick obviously. The real killer is of course Simmons and his inability to shoot. In that sense, I absolutely agree with you that having a non shooter is to their detriment.

If what it comes down to is just having a bunch of shooters, everyone not named GSW should just try to emulate Houston. Find yourself a bunch of shooters, try to have a few of them be 3&D and win, especially in the East.

Bulls aren't really following any of these strategies, at least not outwardly. This doesn't validate the process as a viable championship solution, but it does validate it as better than whatever the heck the Bulls are doing. They're just bad. At least Hinkie attempted to acquire assets while tanking. What have the Bulls done?

So again, if you're building the team from the draft, the picks have to pan out just right. Bulls suck at drafting, so to me it doesn't matter if they get #15 or #3 or #1, I'm already half expecting that pick to fail because I don't trust GarPax to pick the right player.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

No I didn't watch the series. Haven't really watched any playoff games in full save for one GSW/Hou game. Sixers have been poor defensively, I won't argue. They absolutely should be better than Toronto.

It is true that they only have one dedicated shooter in Reddick, yes. Harris came over shooting 43% from 3 before the trade, only shot 35% in the playoffs. Oh well. Butler and Embiid can shoot, but they're not like Reddick obviously. The real killer is of course Simmons and his inability to shoot. In that sense, I absolutely agree with you that having a non shooter is to their detriment.

If what it comes down to is just having a bunch of shooters, everyone not named GSW should just try to emulate Houston. Find yourself a bunch of shooters, try to have a few of them be 3&D and win, especially in the East.

Bulls aren't really following any of these strategies, at least not outwardly. This doesn't validate the process as a viable championship solution, but it does validate it as better than whatever the heck the Bulls are doing. They're just bad. At least Hinkie attempted to acquire assets while tanking. What have the Bulls done?

So again, if you're building the team from the draft, the picks have to pan out just right. Bulls suck at drafting, so to me it doesn't matter if they get #15 or #3 or #1, I'm already half expecting that pick to fail because I don't trust GarPax to pick the right player.

But do they? I think the GarPax era of drafting has had a lot more hits than misses.

 

[zack54attack]

When I wear my NBA conspiracy hat I know that the Knicks are getting Zion, but I'm hoping that since the Bulls have never really given the appearance of full-on tanking like others that Silver rewards them with the #2.

Saw ESPN run a legit feature late Friday night calling it something like "Zion in New York". That and the Draft Lottery in Chicago?

He's going to Cleveland.

 

[Rory Sparrow]

But do they? I think the GarPax era of drafting has had a lot more hits than misses.

Only team to essentially miss on Dwayne Wade twice, tho

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Only team to essentially miss on Dwayne Wade twice, tho

Would he have had a cool nickname like "Captain Kirk" though?

 

[clonetrooper264]

But do they? I think the GarPax era of drafting has had a lot more hits than misses.

Wasn't there an article about how the Bulls lost some scout and since then their drafting has been far more questionable? Think it was around the time they picked Snell. Maybe @Crystallas posted it

2003-2011 is generally pretty solid. After that point you scratch your head a lot more.

Obviously my bias is more towards the recent trend

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Wasn't there an article about how the Bulls lost some scout and since then their drafting has been far more questionable? Think it was around the time they picked Snell. Maybe @Crystallas posted it

2003-2011 is generally pretty solid. After that point you scratch your head a lot more.

Obviously my bias is more towards the recent trend

Matt Lloyd, who is now the interim GM (or maybe they made it official) for Orlando.

 

[Scoot26]

One thing to mention with Milwaukee and GS is they were patient with developing Greek and Curry. It took them 6 seasons to truly take off. Not many fans and organizations have that kind of patience.

 

[Crystallas]

Wasn't there an article about how the Bulls lost some scout and since then their drafting has been far more questionable? Think it was around the time they picked Snell. Maybe @Crystallas posted it

2003-2011 is generally pretty solid. After that point you scratch your head a lot more.

Obviously my bias is more towards the recent trend

Yep. I forgot all the names now. I See Red has been long replaced by "My fuck-counter is now 4 years old and still shows zero".

The only thing this Bulls team did that I support and have been wanting to see is establish a sole affiliation with the DG-League (and they still are far from using the minor system correctly). Pax just wants everyone to scratch their heads bald so they can join his club.

 

[Axl Rose]

Not exactly sure what we are supposed to do. I don't believe there is a correct method, building a championship team is more about luck and timing than anything.

GS for example - all their top players far exceeded their draft position and were further lucky by getting Curry on a deal that turned into a absolute steal that allowed them fill out the roster with guys like Iggy and when the cap exploded, sign Durant.

 

[Crystallas]

Not exactly sure what we are supposed to do. I don't believe there is a correct method, building a championship team is more about luck and timing than anything.

GS for example - all their top players far exceeded their draft position and were further lucky by getting Curry on a deal that turned into a absolute steal that allowed them fill out the roster with guys like Iggy and when the cap exploded, sign Durant.

When everyone was focused on trying to nab stars and manage max contracts, Don Nelson was grinding out shitty players left and right until they had a decent D-League roster and a whole showcase of talent that could give them the options needed to *DEVELOP* players they drafted. If a host of other teams drafted the same guys, the outcome would simply not be the same. Jerry West FULLY understands this.

It is not luck, it is by design. You simply do not win championships by trying to design an entire organization by who you want your starters to be, that's what children do when they play video games. When you can sign a FA that makes a difference both effectively and financially(has to be both), that only works because your organization has maximized the efforts to make those pathways enticing to key free agents. Something the Bulls fail to do because the moment they start collecting future chips, they blow it one or two off-seasons early, dump salaries, and play this bullshit loyalty game with fishing buddies from Iowa. Their judgment is clouded.