Watson vs Mahomes vs Trubisky: 2017 1st Round QB Year 2 Reflection

Leomaz

Anti-Sportshoopla
I really think that is a legit question...not necessarily if Mahomes would have had a legendary season with the Bears in 2018 (I don't think he would have), but if the Bears would have won the Super Bowl this year if they had Mahomes instead of Trubisky.
Of course it is a legit question, but not a legit statement of fact. We may or may not have won it with Mahomes, or we may have had a double doink to end the season. We just can’t prove it one way or another is all I’m saying.
 

Leomaz

Anti-Sportshoopla
The point is your are complaining about conjecture while thanking posts filled of conjecture. That is your right as it is my right to point out how hypocritical it is.

No complaints, just pointing out reality. Feel free to fantasize about having any qb you want. You just can’t prove they would have been better or worse than what we have.
 

remydat

Well-known member
No complaints, just pointing out reality. Feel free to fantasize about having any qb you want. You just can’t prove they would have been better or worse than what we have.
No need. I am fine with the fact we have Trubs.
 

Bearly

Ripped Off Member
Maybe we win if we have Hopkins or Hunt or Gilmore or Gould or Edelman etc. I'm just happy we won the division and the position in question is looking like a positive for a change.
 

airtime143

Well-known member
and no where did he say not to draft him..

It was a "imagine" where we would be with Mahomes AND more draft picks, and he was bringing to light that Mahomes would not be the same player on the Bears and being developed by Fox/Loggins as he was on the Chiefs.

Now if you want to really argue his post then post your own reply to where Mahomes would be development wise dealing with Fox.. Or i guess you could keep with the strawman arguments.. lol
To play devils advocate, Fox may have actually put work in to Mahomes rather than just cash a check and half heartedly punch a clock.

How quickly we forget that Fox coached Mannings finest year- 55 tds, 5500 yards, 115 rating on a whopping 659 attempt season. He had some decent receivers, but it can legitimately be argued manning made them, not the other way around.
Fox got a couple really great seasons out of a fading manning who promptly fell off a cliff thereafter. (yeah, the broncos won a super bowl... but they did so off of the defense. They went from the #2 offense in 2014 to #19 in 2015... Manning faded to his worst year as a pro with 9 tds and 17 picks)

Our fox experience was watching him get saddled Cutler/barkley/clausen and then toss in a limited experience rookie... dude was cashing a check and didnt give a fuck. If he had a prize like Mahomes, He might still be here.

just arguing devils advocate. Our Fox experience was doomed from the start with the cutler contract. Fox had shown beyond a shadow of a doubt he could get some spectacular results with good players, so to discount him developing Mahomes out of hand is not really fair. Who knows what would have happened.
 

Rory Sparrow

Well-known member
To play devils advocate, Fox may have actually put work in to Mahomes rather than just cash a check and half heartedly punch a clock.

How quickly we forget that Fox coached Mannings finest year- 55 tds, 5500 yards, 115 rating on a whopping 659 attempt season. He had some decent receivers, but it can legitimately be argued manning made them, not the other way around.
Fox got a couple really great seasons out of a fading manning who promptly fell off a cliff thereafter. (yeah, the broncos won a super bowl... but they did so off of the defense. They went from the #2 offense in 2014 to #19 in 2015... Manning faded to his worst year as a pro with 9 tds and 17 picks)

Our fox experience was watching him get saddled Cutler/barkley/clausen and then toss in a limited experience rookie... dude was cashing a check and didnt give a fuck. If he had a prize like Mahomes, He might still be here.

just arguing devils advocate. Our Fox experience was doomed from the start with the cutler contract. Fox had shown beyond a shadow of a doubt he could get some spectacular results with good players, so to discount him developing Mahomes out of hand is not really fair. Who knows what would have happened.
Agree completely. Fox won with all types of QBs and usually figured out a way to get the most out of them. Delhomme, Tebow, dead-arm Peyton Manning. To be stuck with Cutler had to be the worst for Fox, even worse than Tebow, because at least Tebow was an unknown. Fox knew going in that Cutler sucked....for Pace to do nothing to address the QB position (even after stating his belief in drafting a QB every year) had to be frustrating for Fox, and possibly contributed to Fox going into full Lou Pinella Retirement Mode.
 

hebs

Well-known member
The huge assumption is he squeaks out 9-7. Based on what? It would have been his first year learning an NFL offense and the supporting cast would have been absolute shit. So not sure how you figure he gets Fox to 9 wins.

We don't know how much he benefited from sitting for an entire year learning so not sure how we make the quantum leap to 9-7.

Considering we're all talking hypothetically, your statement is just as speculative as everyone else's.

The bold is the only thing accurate about this discussion.
 

gilder121

CCS Donator
https://imgur.com/a/ikHopju

I found an imgur album that had the PFF Trubisky breakdown. Didn't want to post the actual images here in case someone gets upset about that. It can be a little hard to read, but by all means, I recommend if you enjoy the content, subscribe to them.
 

remydat

Well-known member
Considering we're all talking hypothetically, your statement is just as speculative as everyone else's.

The bold is the only thing accurate about this discussion.
Yes I am aware that my statement is speculative as well.
 

dbldrew

Well-known member
To play devils advocate, Fox may have actually put work in to Mahomes rather than just cash a check and half heartedly punch a clock.

How quickly we forget that Fox coached Mannings finest year- 55 tds, 5500 yards, 115 rating on a whopping 659 attempt season. He had some decent receivers, but it can legitimately be argued manning made them, not the other way around.
Fox got a couple really great seasons out of a fading manning who promptly fell off a cliff thereafter. (yeah, the broncos won a super bowl... but they did so off of the defense. They went from the #2 offense in 2014 to #19 in 2015... Manning faded to his worst year as a pro with 9 tds and 17 picks)

Our fox experience was watching him get saddled Cutler/barkley/clausen and then toss in a limited experience rookie... dude was cashing a check and didnt give a fuck. If he had a prize like Mahomes, He might still be here.

just arguing devils advocate. Our Fox experience was doomed from the start with the cutler contract. Fox had shown beyond a shadow of a doubt he could get some spectacular results with good players, so to discount him developing Mahomes out of hand is not really fair. Who knows what would have happened.
We have already seen Fox with a young inexperienced, but talented QB.. he did absolutely nothing. To think that Fox would of done anything different is a streach.. the guy was happy that we had a game where Mitch had 7 fucking pass attempts!

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remydat

Well-known member
We have already seen Fox with a young inexperienced, but talented QB.. he did absolutely nothing. To think that Fox would of done anything different is a streach.. the guy was happy that we had a game where Mitch had 7 fucking pass attempts!

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Did he do nothing or did the Bears WRs suck and hinder any development? Do you think Trubs would look as good this year if his WR were still Kendall Wright and Inman. Bear in mind that Wright was so good that one year after playing for the Bears and being their leading WR, he couldn't find a job.

No fan of Fox but I love this narrative that he did nothing for Trubs. If Trubs was hindered last year it was because his GM gave him absolute shit at WR to work with. But can't blame Pace, am I right?
 

WindyCity

Well-known member
Did he do nothing or did the Bears WRs suck and hinder any development? Do you think Trubs would look as good this year if his WR were still Kendall Wright and Inman. Bear in mind that Wright was so good that one year after playing for the Bears and being their leading WR, he couldn't find a job.

No fan of Fox but I love this narrative that he did nothing for Trubs. If Trubs was hindered last year it was because his GM gave him absolute shit at WR to work with. But can't blame Pace, am I right?
No, last years WR core was as pathetic as Fox's coaching job.
 

WestCoastBearsFan

New member
Did he do nothing or did the Bears WRs suck and hinder any development? Do you think Trubs would look as good this year if his WR were still Kendall Wright and Inman. Bear in mind that Wright was so good that one year after playing for the Bears and being their leading WR, he couldn't find a job.

No fan of Fox but I love this narrative that he did nothing for Trubs. If Trubs was hindered last year it was because his GM gave him absolute shit at WR to work with. But can't blame Pace, am I right?
Are you actually saying Fox did anything to help Mitch?? Like that amazing and innovative coaching staff he gave Mitch to work with right? Or that amazing never changing offensive strategy of run run pass? Or some of the most horrendous offensive route combos I have ever seen in the NFL? Or having him throw 7 passes against Baltimore? Fox was absolutely horrible for Mitch. Nagy even took a shot at Fox saying he virtually has to beat the fox out of him


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remydat

Well-known member
Are you actually saying Fox did anything to help Mitch?? Like that amazing and innovative coaching staff he gave Mitch to work with right? Or that amazing never changing offensive strategy of run run pass? Or some of the most horrendous offensive route combos I have ever seen in the NFL? Or having him throw 7 passes against Baltimore? Fox was absolutely horrible for Mitch. Nagy even took a shot at Fox saying he virtually has to beat the fox out of him
More than 10 attempts was one of my issues.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3039707/type/nfl/year/2017

He had 30 or more attempts 7 out of 12 games. So yes he had a 3 games with less than 20 attempts but let's not exaggerate. He was also a great intermediate passer per advanced stats and in many ways was better passing deep last year than this year where at times he looked lost or confused. So highly possible, Fox brought him along slowly in line with the shitty talent at WR and the fact he was incredibly green as a QB.

Was it better than we got Nagy? Of course. But this narrative that Fox did nothing for him is bullshit. Pace was the biggest reason for the issues last year because he gave Trubs a shitty WR core.
 

WestCoastBearsFan

New member
http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3039707/type/nfl/year/2017

He had 30 or more attempts 7 out of 12 games. So yes he had a 3 games with less than 20 attempts but let's not exaggerate. He was also a great intermediate passer per advanced stats and in many ways was better passing deep last year than this year where at times he looked lost or confused. So highly possible, Fox brought him along slowly in line with the shitty talent at WR and the fact he was incredibly green as a QB.

Was it better than we got Nagy? Of course. But this narrative that Fox did nothing for him is bullshit. Pace was the biggest reason for the issues last year because he gave Trubs a shitty WR core.
That explains why all of John Fox’s QBs except Peyton Manning were prolific in his offense right? Also Mitch’s deep ball was much improved as the season went on which is likely because of the horrendous footwork he had which Fox could not / did not fix


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remydat

Well-known member
That explains why all of John Fox’s QBs except Peyton Manning were prolific in his offense right? Also Mitch’s deep ball was much improved as the season went on which is likely because of the horrendous footwork he had which Fox could not / did not fix
When did Fox have great QBs? Are you really trying to blame him for Tebow sucking?

As for his deep ball, he graded out as a better deep ball thrower under Fox than he does under Nagy so not sure his deep ball issues are the result of Fox. Probably the result of his struggling with Nagy's offense or due to increased volume. This with a shittier WR core.

But hey don't let facts ruin your narrative.
 

WestCoastBearsFan

New member
When did Fox have great QBs? Are you really trying to blame him for Tebow sucking?

As for his deep ball, he graded out as a better deep ball thrower under Fox than he does under Nagy so not sure his deep ball issues are the result of Fox. Probably the result of his struggling with Nagy's offense or due to increased volume. This with a shittier WR core.

But hey don't let facts ruin your narrative.
Reading comprehension is hard isn’t it? I clearly said it got better as the season went on. The most obvious reason is Nagy was still working on Mitch’s mechanics in the early part of the season which is why it didn’t grade out as well. It’s also easier to have a better deep ball grade with less attempts. It’s not like Nagy ever said his mechanics were a work in progress or anything.
Edit: and I’m not blaming him for Tebow I’m saying with the exception of Peyton Manning he’s never had a successful QB. That means something.

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