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Thread: Harold Baines Did not deserve to go into the HOF

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    1-888-NEED-HIM brett05's Avatar
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    Default Harold Baines Did not deserve to go into the HOF

    Looks like someone was able to make a convincing case for him. He was one of my all time favorites. I'll share a story a bit later.
    Last edited by FirstTimer; 01-23-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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    All-Star Rory Sparrow's Avatar
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    I guess the "Today's Game Era Committee" is simply code for "Committee to find some recent players who weren't on steroids", with the irony being that Tony LaRussa is on the committee.

    Baines can't even boast Lee Smith's resume`....what a terrible HOF selection.

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    This enshrinement is an embarrassment.

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    He's probably my all time favorite White Sox player, but no way does he deserve to be in the HOF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Sparrow View Post
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    I guess the "Today's Game Era Committee" is simply code for "Committee to find some recent players who weren't on steroids", with the irony being that Tony LaRussa is on the committee.

    Baines can't even boast Lee Smith's resume`....what a terrible HOF selection.
    I've come around, and when Harold retired he was the greatest DH all time. If you're the best at retirement that should get you into the Hall.

    Very happy for both selections.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    I've come around, and when Harold retired he was the greatest DH all time.
    Better than Andre Thornton?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    I've come around, and when Harold retired he was the greatest DH all time. If you're the best at retirement that should get you into the Hall.

    Very happy for both selections.
    That's not even true. By the time Baines retired in 2001 you could argue a guy like Frank Thomas was already a better "all time DH".

    Don Baylor was arguably better. (He won 3 Silver SLuggers at the position and an MVP)
    Paul Molitor won 4 Silver Sluggers at the position and was better
    Edgar Martinez was better by the time Baines retired. 7x AS, 5x Silver Slugger, 2x batting title, better MVP share finishes. For God sakes, they renamed the DH of the year award after him in 2004.

    What's even more damning is ALL of the above guys were contemporaries of Baines and were better than him. These guys consistently beat Baines out for Silver Slugger awards, MVP votes, and ASG appearances.
    Last edited by FirstTimer; 12-10-2018 at 12:06 PM.

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    These tweets are amazing:

    -Mike Trout passed now-Hall of Famer Harold Baines in career WAR (38.3) back in May 2016. He still hadn't yet reached 700 career games.

    -To this point: Harold Baines career WAR: 38.7

    Some notable people not in HOF:
    - Edgar Martinez: 68.4
    - Larry Walker: 72.7
    - Gary Sheffield: 60.7
    - Fred McGriff: 52.6
    - Jeff Kent: 55.4

    Hell, Miguel Tejada is 47.3.

    -Harold Baines was on the ballot as recently as 2011 and received 4.8% of the vote. It was his fifth straight year with a vote total below 10%. Why, just seven years later, do 16 people get to decide that he's now a Hall of Famer when 95.2% of the voters didn't think he was one?

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    I wish Lefty was still here to defend this shit enshrinement when he was pissed Andre Dawson got in

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Sparrow View Post
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    Better than Andre Thornton?
    By quite a bit
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    All-Star Rory Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FirstTimer View Post
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    I wish Lefty was still here to defend this shit enshrinement when he was pissed Andre Dawson got in
    Speaking of Lefty, I noticed he wasn't on the 2018 CCS Hall of Fame listing. Perhaps he will be enshrined by the "CCS Today's Era Committee".

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    Quote Originally Posted by FirstTimer View Post
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    I wish Lefty was still here to defend this shit enshrinement when he was pissed Andre Dawson got in
    And Ron Santo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FirstTimer View Post
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    Edgar Martinez was better by the time Baines retired. 7x AS, 5x Silver Slugger, 2x batting title, better MVP share finishes. For God sakes, they renamed the DH of the year award after him in 2004.
    Edgar Martinez is by far the best DH I've ever seen in my lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    Edgar Martinez is by far the best DH I've ever seen in my lifetime.
    He very well could be now, but was not when Baines retired.
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    CCS HoF: Class of 2015 Grimson's Avatar
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    If you didn't know by now... well, now you know how little credibility the baseball HoF has. Harold Baines lmao.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimson View Post
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    If you didn't know by now... well, now you know how little credibility the baseball HoF has. Harold Baines lmao.
    So the greatest to play a position at retirement does not deserve the Hall? If not for work stoppages he'd have the 3000 hits that get you in.
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    The reaction has been uniformly condemnatory everyplace I've looked (except CCS, of course, which has the worst baseball forums I've ever seen), and rightly so. He's the quintessential compiler with Hall of the Very Good level stats. By any standard used, he's a terrible choice. For example:

    Black ink: Batting -- 3 (rank 560th), Average HoFer = 27.
    Gray ink: Batting -- 40 (rank 655th), Average HoFer = 144.
    Hall of Fame monitor: Batting -- 66 (ranking 311th), Likely HoFer = 100.
    Hall of Fame standards: Batting -- 44 (rank 121st), Likely HoFer = 50.

    Bear in mind that he's a Designated Hitter, not a middle infielder or catcher.

    Using BBRef WAR, he ranks 57th among RFs at 38.7. Players in his range include:

    Jessie Barfiield. 39.4.
    Paul O'Neill. 38.9
    Magglio Ordonez. 38.7
    Juan Gonzalez. 38.7
    Johnny Callison. 38.5
    Kirk Gibson. 38.4
    Roger Maris. 38.2

    All of these players took anywhere from 5394 to 8329 PAs to amass their number. Baines needed 11092 PAs.

    Only two RF HoFers are worse choices, both terrible Vets Committee picks, one them courtesy of Frisch: Ross Youngs (32.2) and Tommy McCarthy (16.2). The closest player above Baines is Chuck Klein (37th, 43.6). There isn't a HoFer anywhere near him.

    The thinking is that this particular Vets Committee was heavily loaded with White Sox "homers," including owner Jerry Reinsdorf, GM Pat Gillick, manager Tony LaRussa, and 2B Roberto Alomar -- and these folks pushed heavily on Baines's behalf, in the manner of Frankie Frisch from the bad old days of this panel's sustained cronyism. There were 16 committee members, and 12 voters were needed for election. Results:

    Smith: 16 votes
    Baines: 12
    Pinella: 11

    None of the other candidates got as many as 5.

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    So when I was about 11 years old, we were waiting by the parking lot for the players to come out and Harold is one of them. Wwe were fortunate to be close to the gate and he signed everything for everyone. He even offered to sign my item twice.

    The other story I have of Harold is at my first job. I'm walking the floor and here that Harold has been traded. I sobbed. Had to go to the back to pull myself together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    He very well could be now, but was not when Baines retired.
    This is 100% wrong and already been covered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    So the greatest to play a position at retirement does not deserve the Hall? If not for work stoppages he'd have the 3000 hits that get you in.
    Harold Baines was MAYBE the 3rd or 4th best DH of his own era..He was never the best ever. You're wrong. This has been pointed out and proven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    So when I was about 11 years old, we were waiting by the parking lot for the players to come out and Harold is one of them. Wwe were fortunate to be close to the gate and he signed everything for everyone. He even offered to sign my item twice.

    The other story I have of Harold is at my first job. I'm walking the floor and here that Harold has been traded. I sobbed. Had to go to the back to pull myself together.
    LOL. Grow up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Sparrow View Post
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    The reaction has been uniformly condemnatory everyplace I've looked (except CCS, of course, which has the worst baseball forums I've ever seen), and rightly so. He's the quintessential compiler with Hall of the Very Good level stats. By any standard used, he's a terrible choice. For example:

    Black ink: Batting -- 3 (rank 560th), Average HoFer = 27.
    Gray ink: Batting -- 40 (rank 655th), Average HoFer = 144.
    Hall of Fame monitor: Batting -- 66 (ranking 311th), Likely HoFer = 100.
    Hall of Fame standards: Batting -- 44 (rank 121st), Likely HoFer = 50.

    Bear in mind that he's a Designated Hitter, not a middle infielder or catcher.

    Using BBRef WAR, he ranks 57th among RFs at 38.7. Players in his range include:

    Jessie Barfiield. 39.4.
    Paul O'Neill. 38.9
    Magglio Ordonez. 38.7
    Juan Gonzalez. 38.7
    Johnny Callison. 38.5
    Kirk Gibson. 38.4
    Roger Maris. 38.2

    All of these players took anywhere from 5394 to 8329 PAs to amass their number. Baines needed 11092 PAs.

    Only two RF HoFers are worse choices, both terrible Vets Committee picks, one them courtesy of Frisch: Ross Youngs (32.2) and Tommy McCarthy (16.2). The closest player above Baines is Chuck Klein (37th, 43.6). There isn't a HoFer anywhere near him.

    The thinking is that this particular Vets Committee was heavily loaded with White Sox "homers," including owner Jerry Reinsdorf, GM Pat Gillick, manager Tony LaRussa, and 2B Roberto Alomar -- and these folks pushed heavily on Baines's behalf, in the manner of Frankie Frisch from the bad old days of this panel's sustained cronyism. There were 16 committee members, and 12 voters were needed for election. Results:

    Smith: 16 votes
    Baines: 12
    Pinella: 11

    None of the other candidates got as many as 5.
    There is zero defense for this choice. The best I have heard is that Baines is a "nice guy" and good citizen. Great. He was an average baseball player for 21 years. He wasn't the best at his position for more than a year or so. The only factual argument in this thread so far is that he made brett(Michael) cry when he was traded.

    Awesome stuff here.

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