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Thread: Lee Smith HOF

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    1-888-NEED-HIM brett05's Avatar
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    Default Lee Smith HOF

    Congrats to Lee Smith. Most terrifying closer in my lifetime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Congrats to Lee Smith. Most terrifying closer in my lifetime.
    I guess the "Today's Game Era Committee" is simply code for "Committee to find some recent players who weren't on steroids", with the irony being that Tony LaRussa is on the committee.

    At least Smith has a better resume than Harold Baines (LOL), but this seems to be less than merited

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Sparrow View Post
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    I guess the "Today's Game Era Committee" is simply code for "Committee to find some recent players who weren't on steroids", with the irony being that Tony LaRussa is on the committee.

    At least Smith has a better resume than Harold Baines (LOL), but this seems to be less than merited
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    I find it helps to put these "worthiness" arguments in the proper context if you re-frame "The Hall of Fame" as "Literally A Bunch of Dudes Not In Any Way Affiliated With Major League Baseball Who Arbitrarily Decide Who Gets Enshrined In A Private, Independent Museum."

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    Neither Baines nor Smith deserve to be in the HOF.

    Hall of Accumulated Numbers, maybe.

    I expect a HOF closer to be someone you at least felt confident would get the save each time you saw him coming in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TL1961 View Post
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    Neither Baines nor Smith deserve to be in the HOF.

    Hall of Accumulated Numbers, maybe.

    I expect a HOF closer to be someone you at least felt confident would get the save each time you saw him coming in.
    And each time Lee entered you thought the game was over.

    Baines retired as the best DH of all time. Anyone that does that to me should be enshrined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TL1961 View Post
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    Neither Baines nor Smith deserve to be in the HOF.

    Hall of Accumulated Numbers, maybe.

    I expect a HOF closer to be someone you at least felt confident would get the save each time you saw him coming in.
    "HOF induction should be primarily based on my gut feelings about closer reliability."

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    All-Star Rory Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TL1961 View Post
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    Neither Baines nor Smith deserve to be in the HOF.

    Hall of Accumulated Numbers, maybe.

    I expect a HOF closer to be someone you at least felt confident would get the save each time you saw him coming in.
    Agree with this. Smith's greatest attribute was his durability...long arms, big hands, muscular legs, never really had any arm troubles. But I never viewed him as a "this game is over" type of closer. He had two seasons with the Cubs where he had double-digit losses, and a third year with 9 losses, yet he made the ASG in 2 of those years. Maybe he was more "dominant" after leaving Chicago (although the numbers don't suggest this), but I remember Lee Smith being far from consistent closer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    And each time Lee entered you thought the game was over.

    Baines retired as the best DH of all time. Anyone that does that to me should be enshrined.
    I never once thought the lead was safe when Lee Smith entered the game.

    We used to joke that even when he got the save, no matter the lead when he came in, the tying run would be on base when it ended. And that was when he didn't llow it to score. He was big, and sturdy, and played forever. He never made an opponent think "We can't let them get it to the closer or we're done."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Sparrow View Post
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    Agree with this. Smith's greatest attribute was his durability...long arms, big hands, muscular legs, never really had any arm troubles. But I never viewed him as a "this game is over" type of closer. He had two seasons with the Cubs where he had double-digit losses, and a third year with 9 losses, yet he made the ASG in 2 of those years. Maybe he was more "dominant" after leaving Chicago (although the numbers don't suggest this), but I remember Lee Smith being far from consistent closer.
    Well, he played in St. Louis and made the HOF so the Cards will claim him as "one of their own" as they did with Sutter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    And each time Lee entered you thought the game was over.

    Baines retired as the best DH of all time. Anyone that does that to me should be enshrined.
    No he did not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    And each time Lee entered you thought the game was over.

    Baines retired as the best DH of all time. Anyone that does that to me should be enshrined.
    If Baines is deserving, a LOT of guys will soon be getting in, because there are better players not in the HOF.

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    When I think terrifying closer, the names Wagner, Rivera, and Hoffman come to mind.

    Not Lee Smith.
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    Edgar Martinez became a full time DH in 1995. He retired three years after Baines in 2004.

    From 1995-2001 Edgar did the following:
    5X All Star
    5x DH of the Year Award
    3x Silver Slugger
    Lead League in OBP 3x
    1x Batting Title
    1x Lead League in RBI's
    1x Lead league in OPS
    1x Led League in Runs
    1x Lead League in Doubles
    1x Lead League in OPS+
    Finished 3rd in the MVP voting in 1995, 6th in 2000.
    Slashed: .329/.446/.574 (OPS of 1.020' OPS+ 164)

    Edgar Martinez was easily better and more accomplished than Baines when Baines retired.

    There is no discussion.

    After Baines retired Martinez put up three more seasons of regression numbers. He was meh. He retired then they immediately named the DH award after him. Stop making it seem like Martinez played for another 5 seasons at an elite level to "pass" Baines after Baines retired. He didn't.

    Martinez last three years after Baines retired:
    .278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger.

    These were not good years for Edgar given his past. Ironically, Edgar's regression seasons almost perfectly match the "average" Baines season. (.289/.356/.465 OPS of .820 OPS+ of 121)

    So even Edgar's "down seasons" are pretty much better or perfectly on par with Baines average season.

    You're, as usual, intellectually bankrupt.


    ---------------------------------------------------

    I love brett's "theory" that three seasons (<400 games) of Edgar doing this .278/.383/.449 (OPS .832, OPS+ 122) 1 ASG, 1 Silver Slugger after Baines retired catapulted Edgar past Baines on all-time DH lists. Edgar's final season(2004) was terrible. He only played 97 games in 2002. His 2003 was really good..but that's pretty much it.
    Last edited by FirstTimer; 12-12-2018 at 09:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gustavus Adolphus View Post
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    When I think terrifying closer, the names Wagner, Rivera, and Hoffman come to mind.

    Not Lee Smith.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatbeard View Post
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    "HOF induction should be primarily based on my gut feelings about closer reliability."
    As Rory pointed out, look at his W-L numbers with the Cubs.

    Losses for a closer are a bad thing. Wins are also often a sign of a blown save, and generally Wins for a closer are not good. Look at the annual totals of his decisions - 14, 16, 11, 18, 14 in a five year stretch, including forty losses.

    Nobody says he was a bad closer. But HOF?

    My gut feeling on HOF? I am not basing it on that, but if I were, I'd say the same thing about Lee Smith as I said when Don Sutton made it: I think of a HOF pitcher as a guy the opponent wants to avoid seeing. And these guys were not that. My opinion. (Sorry to offer an opinion on a sports message board!)

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    More on "my idea" of a HOF.

    I tend to think of HOF players as guys I see every year in the All Star Game.

    Certainly All star voting, done by fans, is a very poor system. But in a 20 year career, I expect to see a HOF actually in an ASG and as a starter (in Baines' case). Is that unrealistic?

    Harold Baines had a career in which fans outside of Chicago could wonder who he was when he retired. He has definitely had a great PR firm working for him, because while he was a consistently good player, he is nowhere close to HOF level.

    I don't believe Edgar Martinez, Dale Murphy or Fred McGriff belong in the HOF, but all are far better than Harold Baines. Jim Edmonds will be making a case if Baines is in.

    In the MVP vote, guys get lots of credit for playing good D as another weight on the scale on whether they are most valuable. Nor in a HOF vote, the fact that a guy can't play the field at all doesn't weigh in?

    If you are a DH, and want to be a HOF player, you better crush the ball. Baines didn't. He was actually pretty "meh". But he played a lot of games. Whoopie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TL1961 View Post
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    More on "my idea" of a HOF.

    I tend to think of HOF players as guys I see every year in the All Star Game.

    Certainly All star voting, done by fans, is a very poor system. But in a 20 year career, I expect to see a HOF actually in an ASG and as a starter (in Baines' case). Is that unrealistic?

    Harold Baines had a career in which fans outside of Chicago could wonder who he was when he retired. He has definitely had a great PR firm working for him, because while he was a consistently good player, he is nowhere close to HOF level.

    I don't believe Edgar Martinez, Dale Murphy or Fred McGriff belong in the HOF, but all are far better than Harold Baines. Jim Edmonds will be making a case if Baines is in.

    In the MVP vote, guys get lots of credit for playing good D as another weight on the scale on whether they are most valuable. Nor in a HOF vote, the fact that a guy can't play the field at all doesn't weigh in?

    If you are a DH, and want to be a HOF player, you better crush the ball. Baines didn't. He was actually pretty "meh". But he played a lot of games. Whoopie.
    Preach.

    I think those guys belong in the HOF, especially Edgar..and I've always been a McGriff mark. Baines in the HOF is a joke.

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    All-Star Rory Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    And each time Lee entered you thought the game was over.
    Its kind of incredible that while we can debate Lee Smith's HOF merits and argue which statistics are important and which achievements are noteworthy, your actual subjective description of Lee Smith is the furthest thing from reality. Its like you can't even remember your own 'memories' correctly.

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    Ryan Zimmerman: .279/.344/.477 . wrc+ 117
    Harold Baines: .289/.356/.465 wrc+ 119

    For god sakes, Harold Baines has no business in the HOF. He had ONE year of 3+ fWAR. One.

    There is no logical argument for Harold Baines being a HOF. He was a good hitter that was never elite in the league. If you claim Baines should be in then you open the door to about, no lie, 30-40 hitters who are not in the HOF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanTown View Post
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    Ryan Zimmerman: .279/.344/.477 . wrc+ 117
    Harold Baines: .289/.356/.465 wrc+ 119

    For god sakes, Harold Baines has no business in the HOF. He had ONE year of 3+ fWAR. One.

    There is no logical argument for Harold Baines being a HOF. He was a good hitter that was never elite in the league. If you claim Baines should be in then you open the door to about, no lie, 30-40 hitters who are not in the HOF.
    Baines was ultra close to auto bid with 3000 hits. If not for work stoppage he makes it. At retirement he was the best DH the league had. Yes, I have him in the Hall for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Baines was ultra close to auto bid with 3000 hits. If not for work stoppage he makes it. At retirement he was the best DH the league had. Yes, I have him in the Hall for that.
    Baines had 11k+ PA to get to his 2800 hits. I mean that's just longevity and again, it's not like 3K hits is an auto bid.

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