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Thread: White Sox close to a deal for Jon Jay

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    And Yet as proven Engel is better than Jay which is the point of this discussion. You want to replace Engel? No issue. Do it with someone better, not worse at more money.



    His numbers are more than just Sept where Jay struggled against these call ups as you just stated. Yes, Engels better



    No one is arguing lifetime numbers. The fact is Jay has been below average since 2014. Come on now, four years of below average production is what Jay is. Jay is done.
    We're gonna have to agree to disagree here. The stats you're trying to use are making your argument worse. If you're trying to tell me a guy that hit .296 for the Cubs with a .374 OBP and .749 OPS 2 seasons ago is below average then you're just not right in the head. When Engel was hitting .169 Jay was hitting .296, think about that. Tell me again who's better. One half of one season does not a career or trend make.

    He's only getting paid 4 million. That's a good deal for a vet when you consider Yolmer's getting paid more than that and he should be a backup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    We're gonna have to agree to disagree here. The stats you're trying to use are making your argument worse. If you're trying to tell me a guy that hit .296 for the Cubs with a .374 OBP and .749 OPS 2 seasons ago is below average then you're just not right in the head. When Engel was hitting .169 Jay was hitting .296, think about that. Tell me again who's better. One half of one season does not a career or trend make.

    He's only getting paid 4 million. That's a good deal for a vet when you consider Yolmer's getting paid more than that and he should be a backup.
    Look at OPS+ and get back to me. 4 years of below production.

    And yes, that's a reasonable sample size especially when you factor age in.

    but yes, I can go with you on agreeing to disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Look at OPS+ and get back to me. 4 years of below production.

    And yes, that's a reasonable sample size especially when you factor age in.

    but yes, I can go with you on agreeing to disagree.
    He obviously didn't see a lot of Cub games. Guys who get in a lot of games (141) and come up low in PA's are a telltale and in his case, the PA's should have been even lower. He was forced into games by injuries and a team not scoring enough timely runs. He's a defensive liability no matter where they played him. A lot of it doesn't show in the numbers....bad jumps, weak arm, extra bases allowed, etc. He's just not a very good outfielder, if the Sox play him regularly you will see what I mean. I don't think they are planning on it though....he'll probably play the same role for you guys. Hopefully, you stay healthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehardfan View Post
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    He obviously didn't see a lot of Cub games. Guys who get in a lot of games (141) and come up low in PA's are a telltale and in his case, the PA's should have been even lower. He was forced into games by injuries and a team not scoring enough timely runs. He's a defensive liability no matter where they played him. A lot of it doesn't show in the numbers....bad jumps, weak arm, extra bases allowed, etc. He's just not a very good outfielder, if the Sox play him regularly you will see what I mean. I don't think they are planning on it though....he'll probably play the same role for you guys. Hopefully, you stay healthy.
    You must not have watched Engel at the plate ever.

    Adam Engel can't hit to save his life. I'll take an average outfielder that can hit over an excellent defender that is 0-3 every night with 2 K's.

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    Here's something to ponder. What happens if Cordell makes the roster out of spring training?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    Here's something to ponder. What happens if Cordell makes the roster out of spring training?
    He isn't
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    He isn't
    What happens if Engel doesn't hit well in spring training and Cordell does? Kinda hard to send him down again with Engel hitting so poorly the last two years. Plus he adds more power and the ability to play multiple positions. Kinda surprising they'd bring in Jay with him still there. Did we finally get rid of Leury, or is he still gonna be there?

    Right now we have too many guys filling 3 spots. I wonder if it'll be Delmonico, Cordell, Engel, and Garcia battling it out? We know Jimenez and Palka are pretty much locks to play out there since we're most likely not getting Harper. As much as Palka's a DH they'll be forced to play him out there since they brought on Alonso. Guess we'll see in a couple months how it all pans out.

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    Just curious if many of you feel this team is ready to make a significant standings jump? I mean why else would anyone propose play an aging, back of his career veteran over the young players that are developing. Doesn't make much sense. It's the Stan Bowman philosophy. The Sox have some real impressive players, no doubt but unfortunately not enough of them are starting pitchers....not going far till they plug that hole in the dyke.

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    Jay, Engel, Avi, etc are just stopgaps while the club waits on Luis Robert, Rutherford, Adolfo, Basabe and other prospects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    What happens if Engel doesn't hit well in spring training and Cordell does? Kinda hard to send him down again with Engel hitting so poorly the last two years. Plus he adds more power and the ability to play multiple positions. Kinda surprising they'd bring in Jay with him still there. Did we finally get rid of Leury, or is he still gonna be there?

    Right now we have too many guys filling 3 spots. I wonder if it'll be Delmonico, Cordell, Engel, and Garcia battling it out? We know Jimenez and Palka are pretty much locks to play out there since we're most likely not getting Harper. As much as Palka's a DH they'll be forced to play him out there since they brought on Alonso. Guess we'll see in a couple months how it all pans out.
    Engel is a lock to start in CF unless the team signs Harper. ST isn't for Adam this time around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehardfan View Post
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    Just curious if many of you feel this team is ready to make a significant standings jump? I mean why else would anyone propose play an aging, back of his career veteran over the young players that are developing. Doesn't make much sense. It's the Stan Bowman philosophy. The Sox have some real impressive players, no doubt but unfortunately not enough of them are starting pitchers....not going far till they plug that hole in the dyke.
    Their pitching including the guys coming up is one of their strengths. Not sure what you mean.

    As for making a major jump, I mean they could. They could get 2nd but that is because the division is the worst in baseball. They aren't ready to be .500 yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehardfan View Post
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    Just curious if many of you feel this team is ready to make a significant standings jump? I mean why else would anyone propose play an aging, back of his career veteran over the young players that are developing. Doesn't make much sense. It's the Stan Bowman philosophy. The Sox have some real impressive players, no doubt but unfortunately not enough of them are starting pitchers....not going far till they plug that hole in the dyke.
    If they're able to sign Machado they're gaining nearly 40-50 homeruns just from the addition of him and Jimenez this year. That alone is going to jump the team a number of games. I'm not sure a lot of people noticed, but once Kopech went down they started playing a lot worse last year. They actually had a decent stretch for a bit where they were playing pretty well. Adding in some new blood and shifting guys like Leury Garcia and Yolmer that are career backups out of the starting lineup will help tremendously. They've also made some good additions to the bullpen which absolutely killed them last year. I can't count how many games they had leads in the middle innings only to have them blown by relievers. Plus they're adding by subtracting James Shields who was an absolute joke in a White Sox uniform.

    Tack on the division is putrid and the Indians are barely trying to stay #1 I'd say we have a recipe to improve greatly.

    Don't forget Cease and Dunning are likely to be up sometime this year, so there's a good chance we'll start to see our starting pitching improve tremendously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    Plus they're adding by subtracting James Shields who was an absolute joke in a White Sox uniform.
    James was tied with 19 QS as the 17th best pitcher in all of baseball in 2018 and the Padres paid half his salary. That's besides the wisdom he gave the young staff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    James was tied with 19 QS as the 17th best pitcher in all of baseball in 2018 and the Padres paid half his salary. That's besides the wisdom he gave the young staff.
    Why do you like bad players? First Dunn, then Engel, now Shields?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Their pitching including the guys coming up is one of their strengths. Not sure what you mean.

    As for making a major jump, I mean they could. They could get 2nd but that is because the division is the worst in baseball. They aren't ready to be .500 yet.
    Kopech is out for the year, last I heard Cease won't start the season in Chicago....Lopez was occasionally pretty good, Giolito was horrid as was Covey. I don't follow the Sox as close as you do but are they planning to start the season with a kid rotation? BTW, from what I saw of Shields....he felt the pain of a terrible bullpen probably more than any other starter on the team. But still, you can't be counting on him....is he even still on the roster?

    I forgot how bad the division is....they play like 18 each vs division teams in MLB, don't they? Damn, that's a third of the schedule vs bad teams. If Cleveland gets the injury bug....Sox could actually make the playoffs with a sub .500 record.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    Why do you like bad players? First Dunn, then Engel, now Shields?
    Why are you wrong so often? I get it in the political beliefs and such, but against pure numbers? Just mind boggling
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehardfan View Post
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    Kopech is out for the year, last I heard Cease won't start the season in Chicago....Lopez was occasionally pretty good, Giolito was horrid as was Covey. I don't follow the Sox as close as you do but are they planning to start the season with a kid rotation? BTW, from what I saw of Shields....he felt the pain of a terrible bullpen probably more than any other starter on the team. But still, you can't be counting on him....is he even still on the roster?

    I forgot how bad the division is....they play like 18 each vs division teams in MLB, don't they? Damn, that's a third of the schedule vs bad teams. If Cleveland gets the injury bug....Sox could actually make the playoffs with a sub .500 record.
    You follow closer than you give yourself credit.

    Giolito was either AWFUL or decent. He was I want to say like 25th in QS which is odd for a guy that had the worst ERA in the league.

    Kopech is out for the year
    Cease is 2020

    Lopez however was really good. Some rough patches, but a solid #3 ceiling #2 type. Rodon is the vet for the rotation. Giolito take the 4th spot. Nova get the 2 spot (shields is gone). They have one opening. I think that's going to be Stepehnson.

    Yes, kinda crappy to start, but guys like Kopech, Cease, Stephenson, to go with Rodon, Lopez, makes this a pretty good future staff. Is that today? No. Is that 2020? Probably not as pitchers usually take a little longer. I'd say no later than 2022 the White Sox staff is top 7 in MLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    Why are you wrong so often? I get it in the political beliefs and such, but against pure numbers? Just mind boggling
    Brett, you like two guys that hit under .170 and a guy that lead the league in losses. I'm not wrong buddy. Plus you're in a cult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    Brett, you like two guys that hit under .170 and a guy that lead the league in losses. I'm not wrong buddy. Plus you're in a cult.
    Nope, not a Lib, but thanks.

    As for leading in losses, are you saying a record for a pitcher for one year matters? As Booker T would say...Tell me you did not just say that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett05 View Post
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    As for leading in losses, are you saying a record for a pitcher for one year matters?
    His overall for the White Sox is pathetic beyond just last year. It was a horrible move and we lost out on a promising prospect.

    16-35 with a 5.31 ERA for the Sox. Just flat out atrocious.

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    The Sox are now in trade rumors for Joc Pederson. Looks like Adam Engel's plate improvement from not worthy of being paid professionally to should be sent down to AAA has been noticed by the Sox as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Boletarian View Post
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    His overall for the White Sox is pathetic beyond just last year. It was a horrible move and we lost out on a promising prospect.

    16-35 with a 5.31 ERA for the Sox. Just flat out atrocious.
    We did lose out on the trade, no doubt, but you said no benefit and you are so out of touch for saying so.
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