Now that Kareem Hunt is a ****ing BROWN does Nagy finally figure out how to use Howar

remydat

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The OL was not as bad as you are making it out to be here.

It is true that zone blocking provides more options for the RB. Howard is better at it because he can cut back and does not have to try and get through a smaller hole quickly.

He is not as good in the power run game because he takes awhile to get to full speed and is no super dynamic through the hole. I think this is where the arm tackles and the tripping on his own feet stuff comes from. To run power the RB needs to be in and through the hole quickly.

Zone runs give Howard 3-4 steps to get his speed going so that he can make a powerful and dynamic cut.

Aready posted PFF and Football Outsider stats that show they are bottom half of NFL.
 

remydat

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We didn't finish the year running 40% gap. We started that way, and as a result the offense was much more diverse in looks and playcalling

And no, Howard was shitty too. He was a much more aggressive runner his first two years. You can watch the games instead of jerking over stats. The run game was an issue because of both the oline and him. We shouldn't change our gameplan to revolve around a guy who wont be here a year from now. He isn't a piece to a puzzle, hes a square peg your trying to force into a round hole.

Cohen ran behind the same oline and average nearly a full yard more than him per carry.

I'm a fan of howard, but he shouldnt get 250 carries again next year.

I don't disagree that he is more effective in zone, everyone knows that, I disagree that we should run zone more just to benefit his limited skillset. The easy solution is to find someone who fits your offense better.

Once again, I doubt I have to explain to you why running Gap is beneficial to the motion/misdirection/rpo/passing game. You can literally watch our first 3 offensive snaps of the season and notice why its beneficial. Howard takes a snap for a dive inside, next play they fake it to the same exact hole, suck up the linebackers, then throw a screen to cohen for an 8 yard gain.

Same drive they run howard up the middle at the goal line, then fake the handoff to the same gap and run mitch to the outside of the tight end for a TD.

Zone is great and all, but you know whats better? Having an unpredictable offense. One thats a mix of schemes. It's what we hired an Andy Reid disciple to do, I'd rather he try to do that rather than cater to an ineffective player.

The answer is clear, keep howard for short power snaps, use him for about 150 rushes on 1st and second down primarily running zone, and draft another runningback who fits your scheme more and can be relied on in 3rd down.

You agreed OL had poor blocking stats. Just telling you that zone blocking allowed him to overcome those limitations.

Cohen just runs whereever he wants. More akin to Barry Sanders where not as dependant on blocking as he has make you miss ability.

O scored 16 points against Pack so not sure your point. They had good games under either scheme. In the end you should do what is successful. It seems you value scheme over success.
 

msadows

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You agreed OL had poor blocking stats. Just telling you that zone blocking allowed him to overcome those limitations.

Cohen just runs whereever he wants. More akin to Barry Sanders where not as dependant on blocking as he has make you miss ability.

O scored 16 points against Pack so not sure your point. They had good games under either scheme. In the end you should do what is successful. It seems you value scheme over success.

It was the first game in the first year for nearly every offensive player in that system. The end result wasn't there but if you actually WATCH the games, which im pretty convinced you either don't do anymore or just get blackout drunk so you forget shit, you would notice the actual scheme and play style nagy is trying to implement.

Get over the fact they didn't score point. This offense was a work in progress. We didn't hire nagy to run the ball in zone 80% of the time and become a ball dominant team. Thats the point im trying to drill into your tiny ass brain.

We hired him to run an offense similar to the chiefs, not the offense he ran the last 4 games of the season. You best believe if trubisky made the necessary progressions to run the full chiefs offense we would have never seen that 4 game stretch.
 

msadows

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Aready posted PFF and Football Outsider stats that show they are bottom half of NFL.

And football outsiders also shows that JHOW was one of the worst backs in the league.

Lamar miller was ranked higher and he ran behind an arguably worse line.

So trubisky sucks, robinson sucks, but somehow JHOW is good. We should just run zone 80% of the time, fuck the rest of the offense. Fuck trying to build a dynamic offense, lets just run the ball. Bring back John Fox and dwarf ass loggains.
 

remydat

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Great I am telling you run what works. If Howard is still here then that appears to he an 80% zone run game. If he finds another RB and 60% zone works then great.

Or would you prefer Nagy stubbornly stick to a percentage that loses games?
 

msadows

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Great I am telling you run what works. If Howard is still here then that appears to he an 80% zone run game. If he finds another RB and 60% zone works then great.

Or would you prefer Nagy stubbornly stick to a percentage that loses games?

So hurt the rest of the offense, stunt their growth, just so jordan howard can average 4ypc and be gone after the season. Gotcha.
 

msadows

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Lets play foxball because Jordan Howard.

#JustRemyThings

Keep talking about how arob sucks, and how mitch had a bad playoff game. Then just scoff over the fact Jordan Howard coulda won it for us on a gap play but got arm tackled. That was the olines fault too i guess. No wait it was Nagy's.
 

remydat

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So hurt the rest of the offense, stunt their growth, just so jordan howard can average 4ypc and be gone after the season. Gotcha.

You have no evidence it hurt the offense or stunt their growth. I saw the O dominating the Vikings in the last game of the regular season with heavy zone runs. Some games the heavy zone is best. Other games going with more gap may work best.

Again, run what works.
 

remydat

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Lets play foxball because Jordan Howard.

#JustRemyThings

Keep talking about how arob sucks, and how mitch had a bad playoff game. Then just scoff over the fact Jordan Howard coulda won it for us on a gap play but got arm tackled. That was the olines fault too i guess. No wait it was Nagy's.

ARob could have won it for us if he had dragged his foot. Mitch could have won it for us if he were more accurate in the first. Jordan Howard could have won it for us if he broke a big run. Nagy could have won it for us if he called a better game. Plenty of guys could have won it for us. Fact is they didn't because they all failed in varying degrees.
 

msadows

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ARob could have won it for us if he had dragged his foot. Mitch could have won it for us if he were more accurate in the first. Jordan Howard could have won it for us if he broke a big run. Nagy could have won it for us if he called a better game. Plenty of guys could have won it for us. Fact is they didn't because they all failed in varying degrees.

You absolutely fucking suck
 

msadows

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You have no evidence it hurt the offense or stunt their growth. I saw the O dominating the Vikings in the last game of the regular season with heavy zone runs. Some games the heavy zone is best. Other games going with more gap may work best.

Again, run what works.

Sounds like you want John Fox as a coach.

There's 100% evidence running 80% zone is not what nagy was brought in to do.
 

remydat

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You absolutely fucking suck

You are getting emo.

Sounds like you want John Fox as a coach.

There's 100% evidence running 80% zone is not what nagy was brought in to do.

There is evidence that sometimes running 80% is necessary to win. Again would you prefer we lose running 60% zone or win running 80% zone? Each game in the NFL is different. You run whatever you need to run to win that particular game. Why is this a hard concept? The NFL is not going to add wins to the column if Nagy sticks to 60% zone not matter what.
 

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In a zone scheme, when the OL are terrible blocking, the RB has cutback lanes. Every time Howard cutback, it is an indication that the actual hole was covered but because of the zone scheme, he had an option to cut back. The issue here is in a gap scheme when that hole was covered, his cutback options were limited or non-existent. Point being having a shitty OL is part of the reason it is better to have a zone scheme as the RB can then use his elite vision to make up for the shitty blocking.

So it is like you have the pieces to the puzzle but don't realize how they fit. Howard could overcome shitty run blocking last year because the 80% zone meant he had options other than hitting the hole as the play was designed. He could not overcome shitty run blocking this year in part because 40% of his runs were in a gap scheme where if the OL was shitty, he was largely fucked.

That doesn't mean some of it wasn't his own fault (ie going down a bit easier than last year) but if it was just about going down to easy, he wouldn't have such a huge difference between his 4.1 in zone vs 2.9 in gap.

The design of the zone scheme IS the cutback lane. And the RB actually has more freelance options to individually effect the play in a gap scheme. In the zone scheme, he has to follow his specific reads. In the gap scheme, he has to be able to create for himself a majority of the time based on his own instincts and vision.

Sure, the end game in gap blocking is to open 1 big running lane. But more times than not that is not what happens.

There is no “make up for shitty blocking” in a zone play. You just follow the same exact keys every time. While in the gap scheme, you can ultimately bounce it in various directions.
 

remydat

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The design of the zone is to provide the running back with multiple options depending on how the D reacts and the defensive alignment. It is not necessarily the cutback lane because if the D under reacts to the blocking then you just hit the hole the play looks designed to hit. If the D overreacts then you hit the cutback lanes.

The design of a gap blocking scheme is to attack a specific gap and it gets complicated because it is dependent upon defensive alignment. It is more prone to lineman blowing blocks and as the design was to open 1 big running lane, it is generally much harder to find an alternative hole if the gap is covered if one even materializes.

My point about making up for shitty blocking is the zone scheme naturally gives you options. The gap scheme by contrast generally is more freelance and it is a matter of you trying to manufacture an option if the gap you were suppose to run through is not available. Of course speaking in broad terms.
 

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Best way to use Howard--trade him for a bag of chips
 

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