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Thread: Can we all get behind Jordan Howard now?

  1. #23
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkBear View Post
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    Has Mizzel EVER in the his career had a big play? Howard has at least had some 20 yarders lol
    Mizell has 9 carries in his career. Ya'll acting like Nagy is having dis dude and benny take away all of jordan howards carries. lol

    Dude got playtime more so on passing downs where they wanted to either give cohen a breather or use both him and cohen.

  2. #24
    All-Star Midway Mitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halftime View Post
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    I don't know why, but he's always the first player I hear people throw around trade scenarios for, or complain about his performance, or not being a "good fit" for the offense...etc.

    Can't we all just get behind the guy for once? He's done everything he's been asked to and even worked out the pass catching issues everyone was sooooo worried about last year. Like, you cannot have a back that cannot catch anymore was peoples primary reason for burning the guy, and he got it figured out in one off-season.

    And quit calling him fat!
    I can get behind him being backup. Bears need an upgrade at starting tailback. Need more versatility. Sorry it’s 2019.

  3. #25
    All-Star WindyCity's Avatar
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    We can all probably fit behind him..... because he is fat.

    The title of this thread made the fat jokes too easy.

  4. #26
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    And all you fucks who say the offensive line, or the scheme, etc.

    Lamar Miller had 40 less carries than Jordan Howard, and gained more yardage than him on the season behind an arguably worse offensive line. They are pretty much neck and neck in DVOA.

    We can blame Nagy, the scheme, the oline as much as we want. But you should also blame Jordan Howard. He wasn't the same back he was his first 2 years.

  5. #27
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midway Mitch View Post
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    I can get behind him being backup. Bears need an upgrade at starting tailback. Need more versatility. Sorry it’s 2019.
    Ehh, I'm all for a RBBC. Sign Spencer Ware or draft someone, give Howard some first down looks, sprinkle in Ware and Cohen and 2nd and 3rd downs. Let JHOW get the hard short yardage runs. Now question is how happy will howard be getting 150 carries a year?

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    Vagabond Wannabe iueyedoc's Avatar
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    It's not that Nagy didn't use him, he was sixth in carries last season. It's that he was indecisive at the hole like never before and was 39th out of 49 in YPC for qualifiers. In the NFL you are what you most recently showed and he was a below average back last season, matters not whether he is a poor scheme fit or just a poor rb at this point. Great kid and I would love for him to get back to form a nd be a great Bears back, just don't see it.

  7. #29
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iueyedoc View Post
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    It's not that Nagy didn't use him, he was sixth in carries last season. It's that he was indecisive at the hole like never before and was 39th out of 49 in YPC for qualifiers. In the NFL you are what you most recently showed and he was a below average back last season, matters not whether he is a poor scheme fit or just a poor rb at this point. Great kid and I would love for him to get back to form a nd be a great Bears back, just don't see it.
    This as well, I saw him being a LOT more indecisive at hitting the hole this past year. Maybe it's because the holes werent big enough to run a fucking truck thru them like he's normally used to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    6th most carries in the NFL = DID NOT USE HIM
    I did not day he did not use him. I said he does not WANT to use him.

  9. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    And all you fucks who say the offensive line, or the scheme, etc.

    Lamar Miller had 40 less carries than Jordan Howard, and gained more yardage than him on the season behind an arguably worse offensive line. They are pretty much neck and neck in DVOA.

    We can blame Nagy, the scheme, the oline as much as we want. But you should also blame Jordan Howard. He wasn't the same back he was his first 2 years.
    It has been reported and admitted that a large part of the issue was Nagy switching to gap blocking. Howard is not a gap runner. He is a zone runner. Pretty simple really.

  10. #32
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
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    It has been reported and admitted that a large part of the issue was Nagy switching to gap blocking. Howard is not a gap runner. He is a zone runner. Pretty simple really.
    Howard has one elite trait, its his vision.

    We need a better running back, not to change our offense to fit an average one.

  11. #33
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
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    I did not day he did not use him. I said he does not WANT to use him.
    Huh? 6th most carries with the 34th worst YPC? If anything Nagy shouldn't have used him as much as he did.

    If he didn't WANT to use him he would have less than the 6th most carries in the NFL, guy. He had 2 less carries than his rookie year for fucks sake. The difference, once again remy, isn't Nagy, or the offensive scheme.

    The difference is Jordan Howard is an average runningback who had the pleasure of running behind 3 probowl calibur interior lineman his first 2 years in the league. He ran through giant holes in that zone scheme, and went untouched into the second level. This year he had zero playmaking ability because those holes weren't there, or he failed to react to them properly.

    That screams average back to me. Is he good enough? Well yea. Should we change our offensive scheme to fit his fucking skillset? FUCK NO. He won't be a bear in 2020 barring a miracle resurgence which I don't see happening. He never had an elite skillset, and this offense just made that apparent to everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    Howard has one elite trait, its his vision.

    We need a better running back, not to change our offense to fit an average one.
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...ocking-carries

    Chiefs ran zone almost 60% of time. Of that 71% was outside zone. Bears were at 81% zone and 57% outside zone.

    Nagy decided to run more gap blocking. That fucked up Howard's effectiveness. What makes the decision all the more odd is that Chiefs ran mostly zone blocking last year.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/bearswi...-playoffs/amp/

    Howard was 4.1 on zone blocking. 2.9 on gap. Quick, which scheme dragged down his average? And why go to gap blocking when Bears and Chiefs ran mostly zone last year?

    Seems Nagy tried to go to gap scheme that was poor fit for Bears. Sorry but that is what data says. Can't claim it was necessary because Chiefs O that he came from was primarily zone as well.

    As I have been saying all along with Nagy, he gets too cute and/or overthinks things. Should habe stuck with what worked in Chicago anf Chiefs last year.

  13. #35
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
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    https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...ocking-carries

    Chiefs ran zone almost 60% of time. Of that 71% was outside zone. Bears were at 81% zone and 57% outside zone.

    Nagy decided to run more gap blocking. That fucked up Howard's effectiveness. What makes the decision all the more odd is that Chiefs ran mostly zone blocking last year.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/bearswi...-playoffs/amp/

    Howard was 4.1 on zone blocking. 2.9 on gap. Quick, which scheme dragged down his average? And why go to gap blocking when Bears and Chiefs ran mostly zone last year?

    Seems Nagy tried to go to gap scheme that was poor fit for Bears. Sorry but that is what data says. Can't claim it was necessary because Chiefs O that he came from was primarily zone as well.
    The link you just posted stated that Howard ran zone on nearly 60% of his carries in the first half of the season. I don't think you read the article sadly. 58.6% of his carries means he ran more zone than Gap blocking, he just wasn't good at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    Ehh, I'm all for a RBBC. Sign Spencer Ware or draft someone, give Howard some first down looks, sprinkle in Ware and Cohen and 2nd and 3rd downs. Let JHOW get the hard short yardage runs. Now question is how happy will howard be getting 150 carries a year?
    No one should be concerned about Jordan Howard’s happiness. He’s the biggest tell in the NFL. His lack of versatility literally negates Nagy’s creativeness. Then on top of it he averages under 4 YPC.

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    I like the Fatty
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  16. #38
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    As stated previously, its a lot harder to give the defense the same exact play look running a zone scheme. I assume thats why Nagy wanted to try Gap blocking considering it gave more options in the RPO and misdirection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    Huh? 6th most carries with the 34th worst YPC? If anything Nagy shouldn't have used him as much as he did.

    If he didn't WANT to use him he would have less than the 6th most carries in the NFL, guy. He had 2 less carries than his rookie year for fucks sake. The difference, once again remy, isn't Nagy, or the offensive scheme.

    The difference is Jordan Howard is an average runningback who had the pleasure of running behind 3 probowl calibur interior lineman his first 2 years in the league. He ran through giant holes in that zone scheme, and went untouched into the second level. This year he had zero playmaking ability because those holes weren't there, or he failed to react to them properly.

    That screams average back to me. Is he good enough? Well yea. Should we change our offensive scheme to fit his fucking skillset? FUCK NO. He won't be a bear in 2020 barring a miracle resurgence which I don't see happening. He never had an elite skillset, and this offense just made that apparent to everyone.
    We shouldnt change our offense scheme to fit Howard. Nagy already knows how to run zone so it is not a departure.

    And once again Howard had 4.1 YPC in zone this year. 2.9 in gap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    The link you just posted stated that Howard ran zone on nearly 60% of his carries in the first half of the season. I don't think you read the article sadly. 58.6% of his carries means he ran more zone than Gap blocking, he just wasn't good at it.
    Yes which because it was lower than 81% from last year depressed his numbers as he had a terrible 2.9 YPC on gap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    As stated previously, its a lot harder to give the defense the same exact play look running a zone scheme. I assume thats why Nagy wanted to try Gap blocking considering it gave more options in the RPO and misdirection.
    As noted in stats Chiefs still a heavy zone scheme despite that fact. So you know what, if zone is going to improve run game and is already part of scheme then just do it.

  20. #42
    All-Star msadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
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    As noted in stats Chiefs still a heavy zone scheme despite that fact. So you know what, if zone is going to improve run game and is already part of scheme then just do it.
    Dude you just said the chiefs ran zone 60% of the time. Howard ran zone 58.6% of the time in the first half of the season when Nagy actually wanted to run that type of offense.

    Same shit. And that was with Alex Smith.

    You essentially linked me shit that countered your argument.

    We ran zone just as much as the chiefs did last year. Sorry for not playing foxball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msadows View Post
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    Dude you just said the chiefs ran zone 60% of the time. Howard ran zone 58.6% of the time in the first half of the season when Nagy actually wanted to run that type of offense.

    Same shit. And that was with Alex Smith.

    You essentially linked me shit that countered your argument.

    We ran zone just as much as the chiefs did last year. Sorry for not playing foxball.
    So that means 40% of his runs were gap which at 2.9 YPC depressed his numbers. When Nagy was closer to the 81% Bears had last year then Howard looked better at end of season.

    Point being this is not changing the offensive scheme as Nagy's scheme is already zone blocking heavy. This would be running a higher proportion of plays in your scheme that you know your player is better at. The plays are already a part of the scheme. Nagy just did not call them enough at start of season.

    So you have been completely wrong claiming it would require some overhaul of offensive scheme. You confusing scheme with offensive gameplan. The scheme already zone blocking heavy. The gameplan should have called those plays a higher percentage of the time was the issue.

  22. #44
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    I read an interesting article which argued that Jordan Howard was struggling because he was no longer seeing any 8 man boxes. In prior years, teams crashed in on howard Immediately, which compressed 8 defenders all into the same level of the field (the line of scrimmage). All Howard had to do was make 1 quick cut and there were no defenders in the 2nd level for Howard to maneuver around.

    This year, with the offense spread out, Howard saw the least amount of 8 man boxes in the NFL for a starting RB. Now Howard has to maneuver around defenders at every level, 1 cut is not going to spring him loose.

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