Yes
No
Yes.Originally Posted by RamiTheBullsFan
Nice job restating what I said.
Not true. Hate to break it to you but there are more people on this site than just you or I. So because I think you are a moron doesn't mean I think everyone here is. I'm the narcissist?
More utter bullshit.
I am.
Correct.
Gonna cry about it more?
Last edited by FirstTimer; 11-15-2011 at 11:33 AM.
I think you are taking an elementary look at grading players. But back to the original question...you wouldn't trade Deng and Noah for an elite player...I would...no doubt about it. And I am not ready to put Griffin on the same level as Carmelo Anthony based on one season...you made that mistake before remember? Saying Griffin was better than Dirk? I don't think so.
And the Bulls need a top notch clutch performer...who on that list of elites would you take over Carmelo RIGHT NOW?
If I knew the Dwight Howard possibility was out of the question then I would definitely highly consider that Deng and Noah for Anthony trade. I'll grant you that.
And Griffin is arguably better than Nowitzki but I was quick to give him that nod. You are right. Griffin isn't as good offensively (even though he soon might be) and is a dominant rebounder (unlike Dirk).
And who would I take on the Bulls ahead of Carmelo? Definitely Nowitzki. Definitely Bryant. Definitely Wade. And Howard. And Durant. And James.
I would consider taking Paul and Williams (even though the Bulls already have Rose). I would also consider taking Gasol, Griffin, and Stoudemire. But these I may more inclined to go with Anthony.
Brother...taking Paul or Williams when you have Rose on your team and Carmelo as an option is asinine. There is not other way to put it.
After the Finals, you would be one of a few to argue that Griffin is better than Dirk...Dirk's legacy is secure...Griffin has yet to perform on that level, I am not putting him on Dirk's level.
I respect Kobe a great deal...and have been criticized for it. I wouldn't take him over Melo right now. Kobe is an old 33...he has been playing for 15 years. No way am I taking Kobe over Melo right now. Kobe is on the downside of his career...
Kobe Bryant is still a much better defender than Carmelo Anthony and he still has the ability of playing like a PG. He still has another 5 years at star-to-near all-star level.
A lot of people on this forum wanted Stephen Curry on the Bulls to go next to Derrick Rose. I wasn't a big fan of that idea, just like I am not a big fan of Deron or Paul next to Rose. But Deron Williams definitely has a lot of athleticism and both would be great scorers and passers. The main problem would be defense with a Rose-Williams backcourt. It would be a problem with Paul-Rose as well, with much of the same benefits.
Like I said, there are only about 5 players that I would surely take on the Bulls ahead of Anthony: James, Wade, Howard, Durant, Nowitzki, and Bryant.
And I am not arguing that Griffin is better than Nowitzki anymore. I just said that there is a solid case to be heard about it. Griffin is also a great scorer and will improve his post game, surely. And he averages about 4 more rebounds than Nowitzki at the same position. You want to bring up the age thing between Melo and Kobe. Well, I am bringing that up between Nowitzki and Griffin. I absolutely love Dirk, too, and I defended him when all of the haters were calling him a choke artist. He had a clutch season last year and was a top 3 MVP candidate (well ahead of LeBron and Wade in my opinion).
Correction: Nowitzki averages over 5 less rebounds and about 1 less assist.
Last edited by RamiTheBullsFan; 11-15-2011 at 11:39 PM.
Griffin probably gets more rebounds because he's an athletic freak as well as possessing a game that doesn't extend past the free throw line. That probably explains the near 3 rebound difference in the offensive rebounding category anyway. I won't argue that Nowitzki is better than Griffin when it comes to rebounding because he isn't, but just saying that those rebounding numbers don't necessarily help determine who's better.
NBA Redraft Roster
PG-Derrick Rose
SG-Manu Ginobili
SF-Gerald Wallace
PF-Pau Gasol
C-Dwight Howard
Bench
PG-Kyle Lowry
SG-Wesley Matthews
SF-Lamar Odom
PF-Amare Stoudamire
C-Marcin Gortat
Hidden Content
Kobe is a shooting guard...his ability to play like a point guard is immaterial. That is like saying Carmelo can play like a 2 guard...I guess he could in certain situations...but he is a small forward.
The Stephen Curry argument was based on one thing...Curry's ability to shoot the basketball. Deron Williams has spent too many years as a point guard in the NBA and Chris Paul is the best pure point guard in the league in my opinion. Neither of them is the answer to what the Bulls need with Carmelo as a possible option.
If you think Kobe has 5 years left at the level he is at now...you are delusional. You can't compare Kobe to Jordan because Kobe has logged a LOT more minutes on his body than Jordan did at the same point. He is already declining. I doubt he is even in the league 5 years from now, let alone playing at the same level.
I wouldn't take Nowitzki over Melo going forward because of age. Dirk is at the end of his prime years also. But its interesting that your list of players you would take ahead of Melo is full of MVP candidates and future HOFers, but Melo is not considered elite so you say.
Kobe Bryant has point guard / play-making skills that Melo does not have. It is much more beneficial to have 2 stars who can create for himself and others. If Rose and Anthony were on the same team, both players wouldn't be able to do both of those things.
I just believe it is more beneficial that way because when you have 2 players who are able to feed off of each other, it is very hard to stop. There are teams like Dallas who managed to win with 4 guys feeding off of each other and Dirk, but the Bulls don't seem to be built like that.
And Bryant will still be in the league in 5 years if he wants to be. He could definitely step into a lesser scoring role and be an effective player barring further injury. I understand that he is not the old Kobe, but he is still going to be a smart and pretty athletic player for a number of more years.
I could see the Anthony over Nowitzki argument (on the Bulls) although I think Nowitzki is a better defensive player than Anthony and works in a screen-and-roll/pop much better than Melo. And Dirk's fade away is better than any single weapon Anthony has in his scoring arsenal.
I agree that I would not take Paul or Williams over Rose in all likelihood, but the only reason Curry would be a better fit is because he wouldn't demand as high of a price. He is a somewhat better shooter, but both Williams and Paul are great shooters anyway.
Whether or not Anthony is "elite" depends on how you define the word. Anthony doesn't fall within a certain group of players who happen to be at the top of the league right now, but he is a borderline top 10 player and a top 2, 3, or 4 scorer in the NBA. So it really all depends on point of view. Anthony is a perennial all-star and a dominant scorer. However, can you really put him on a level that is far and beyond a guy like Gasol or Griffin who are not even in the elite category of players by any stretch of the imagination? That is why I consider him the best of the non-elite about as much as I would consider him the worst of the elite.
And this whole notion of coming into the league young taking a massive toll on your body is very overstated. Players today have access to athletic trainers and medical staff that they never would have dreamed possible back in even the Jordan era. Players are going to play hard and often whether or not they are in high school, the NCAA, or the pro's between the ages of 17 and 22.
I do not doubt that the NBA can be very physically demanding. The 82 or more game schedule and all of those practices take more miles off of your body than college or high school. But I do not believe that really is going to take years and years off of most players. Especially as a non-big man type of player.
LOL at this complete reversal.
My original position back months ago was that the Bulls should consider the trade, but I wouldn't do it. Your's and Lefty's was that they should make that trade at all costs. Hindsight is 20/20, and if somehow I knew that the Bulls could not pull together a Dwight Howard deal, then I might regret not doing that deal. But, I still wouldn't make the deal, right now or back then, knowing the Bulls can still make a play at Howard.
Utter bullshit.
Umm no it wasn't.
I've always supported a Deng/Noah for Melo deal.
I didn't say to unload the entire roster for him.
Wrong again!
More bullshit.
At the time the Melo deal was first being discussed Howard wasn't even in play, by anyone's standards or reports. So your hope of trading for Howard isn't an excuse for your original issue with making the trade. You never even mentioned Howard int he original discussions and Howard trade talk hadn't even started up yet.
Nice try at revisionist history.
So, the top 2 scorer in the NBA is not an elite player. Got it.
I always held out hope for a player better than Anthony to go along with Rose. I was crushed that Wade and James went to Miami, and that Durant extended with OKC. I honestly don't think that Anthony will be the x-factor that leads the Bulls, with Rose, past Miami.
I definitely wanted to send Gibson and Deng for Anthony, but I felt Noah and Deng would have been too high-risk of a deal.
And I said, "Your's and Lefty's was that they should make that trade at all costs."
"Costs" being what it would mean to lose our best 2 defensive players and depth in the process. I'm not saying you wanted to send Rose away or anything like that.
That really isn't what I said in the frame you just quoted though.
The main firm thing I said is that Carmelo doesn't fall within the group of the absolute best players in the league. By some definitions, a group of players like that would be better labeled as the elite. I loosely defined what I felt the "elite" group of players really is.
Lots of players have come and gone in the NBA who could average at or near 30 points and play bad defense. Kevin Martin is an example of that in the league right now.
Ok?
At all costs?
You mean those two players?
The cost is defined.
There's no mystery.
Saying "at all costs" is both redundant and uneccessary.
Depth? You only losing one player than you are getting back and this dumb assertion the Bulls can't make anymore moves post Anythony trade to get "depth" back is absurd and I still can't believe it's still an issue. It's not complicated. The Bulls still could make more moves post Anthony trade to bring in "depth players". Why people are so hung up on ONE move when there could be/would be/should be subsquent moves is ridiculous.
1. Lets see the list of "lots" of players.
2. Did you really just compare Carmelo Anthony to Kevin Martin?
Fair enough, I used poor phrasing in some of that previous post. And you are right, I would have a hard time saying no to that Deng and Noah for Anthony deal if I knew we will not get Dwight Howard. In fact, I would probably do it if that was the case (probably). I guess you win.
I would never compare Anthony to Martin. I was just talking about the concept that you can be a very good scorer and be an overall terrible player in every other regard. Anthony is a better defender and is a very good rebounder than Martin.
Great. Only took you a year to come around.
Ok, so what's the point of even bringing up Kevin Martin, who BTW, has never averaged anywhere near 30PPG.
My point was that if he wasn't such a terrible player in every other regard to scoring, he would have been on the floor many more minutes to get very close to that 30 point per-game mark. He probably would have given up near that much from the man he was guarding on most nights.
Even with Kevin Martin playing 38MPG he didn't even average 25PPG.
But the above is why I hate people who use Per36 etc to compare players.
Last season, if Martin averaged 40 minutes, he would have averaged 28.8 points per-game, but you are right that PER36 is a very flawed stat. There are players like Ben Gordon and J.R. Smith who come in and chuck up shots for 5 minutes and make them all because the defense cannot account for them after only playing about 20 total minutes. If they play for 36 minutes, their PER36 would diminish dramatically.
Same thing with old players. Their PER36 would diminish dramatically if they were to play 38 total minutes every night.
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