1994 Bulls vs 2011 Bulls in 7 game series

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97Bulls

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Rory Sparrow said:
I don't remember that being said about Jordan. He never really had a "couldn't win" label, because those mid-1980's Bulls teams were never expected to win. Those Atlanta Hawks teams, though, had several talented players. IIRC, they never advanced past the quarterfinals, so they were labeled as underachievers.
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Wow, talk about revisionist history. Even in one of one those videos jordan made, he acknowledged the consensus that he couldn't win as a scoring leaader. I believe it was come fly with me.
 
eternityw

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97Bulls said:
Wow, talk about revisionist history. Even in one of one those videos jordan made, he acknowledged the consensus that he couldn't win as a scoring leaader. I believe it was come fly with me.
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Yeah, he also said he needs complete team to win championship, he tried to do all things on the court by himself (offense, defense, ball handling...) but he couldn't win by himself. The guy named Scottie Pippen became master of defense and helped team to score when it was needed, Horace became a good player fast also and Phil produced bulls style of play based on defense.
 
eternityw

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At most defensive team win championship. When bulls became one of the best defensive teams they reached the finals. MJ was still a scoring leader + defense. balanced team
From nowadays San Antonio Spurs is the example. their style of play is not so exciting but they won 4 titles.
 

Kush77

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This thread made it over 1000. Fantastic. Great work guys :beerbang:
 
Gustavus Adolphus

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Rory Sparrow said:
ce80013ec02ad58538f89f3c159a4770
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No way is that to scale.
 
97Bulls

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houheffna said:
you totally misinterpreted what I said, though I still say Pippen wasn't much of a clutch player. My point was that was one aspect of his game he didn't do well in. Doesn't mean he was never a great player.
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I understand perfectly. I just see it as an aspect that he never had the chance to show. Which is why he sat out that last 2 seconds. It wasn't like he got the ball at the top of the key and was cleared out. And he missed. Those opportunities were given to jordan. And for good reason obviously. Even if he did go in and hit that shot. I wouldn't call thathim being clutch. That's something he would've had to do time after time. He never got that chance. Unless you count him missing those fts in portland. But even still thatts not a factor cuz he was a relatively bad ft shoooter to begin with.
 
97Bulls

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Rory Sparrow said:
And yet every title he won, he was also the NBA scoring leader.

FACTS >>>>> Your recollection of the Come Fly With Me video
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Lol michael jordan said it. He wanted to dispell the notion that great scorers couldn't lead a team to a championship. Magic said it too. When recalling the 91 finals. I think a lot had to do with wilt and how he couldn't win while putting up those gaudy stats.
 
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Rory Sparrow said:
Do you remember that scene in Come Fly with Me when Magic says that until Jordan wins 6 rings, he will just be another Dominique Wilkins? And then Bird says that Karl Malone is a better defender than Scottie Pippen?
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Magic was too worried about his white blood cell count to ever make a statement like that.
 
97Bulls

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Rory Sparrow said:
So, first you claim that Jordan said he couldn't win a championship as a scoring leader. Now, you claim that Jordan wanted to "dispell" the notion that great scorers couldn't lead a team to a championship. And Magic "said it too".

Which is it? Did Jordan say he couldn't win a championship as a scoring leader? Or did he say he wanted to win a championship as a scoring leader? They are two diametrically opposed things. :dunno:
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No I said the consensus around the league was that jordan wasn't gonna win with that type of style. Some of the people on this thread disagreed. And I stated that jordan himself admitted that this was the general understanding at the time. And yes magic said it when he was talking about the 91 finals. He said jordan had figured it out. So to speak. I believe isaiah thomas said the same thing.
 
97Bulls

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Rory Sparrow said:
Do you remember that scene in Come Fly with Me when Magic says that until Jordan wins 6 rings, he will just be another Dominique Wilkins? And then Bird says that Karl Malone is a better defender than Scottie Pippen?
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Obviously it wasn't come fly with me. Maybe it was michael jordans playground. All the other stuff your saying is stupid. I never said or implied magic said that. And I never even compared scottie pippen to karl malone.

Oh and understand I'm not calling you stupid. But that notion that I said magic something like that would be stupid. Or stupid for me to state something like that.
 

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Rory Sparrow said:
So, first you claim that Jordan said he couldn't win a championship as a scoring leader. Now, you claim that Jordan wanted to "dispell" the notion that great scorers couldn't lead a team to a championship. And Magic "said it too".

Which is it? Did Jordan say he couldn't win a championship as a scoring leader? Or did he say he wanted to win a championship as a scoring leader? They are two diametrically opposed things. :dunno:
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Jordan said that people (fans and media, I suppose) would say a scoring champ could never win a title. I guess that was thought since big time scorers like Wilkins and George Gervin never won. And a guy like Russell won more title than Wilt, despite Wilt's scoring records. Prior to Jordan winning the scoring title and NBA title, I think Kareem, with Milwaukee, was the last guy.

Anyway, here's the video. He says something about it a 2:50
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1b2juZADPM&feature=related]‪Michael Jordan - Air Time - part 1/9‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
 
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then jordan winning a title while being the league leader in scoring helps the argument about jordan being a winner, not disproves it
 
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Kush77 said:
Jordan said that people (fans and media, I suppose) would say a scoring champ could never win a title. I guess that was thought since big time scorers like Wilkins and George Gervin never won. And a guy like Russell won more title than Wilt, despite Wilt's scoring records. Prior to Jordan winning the scoring title and NBA title, I think Kareem, with Milwaukee, was the last guy.

Anyway, here's the video. He says something about it a 2:50
‪Michael Jordan - Air Time - part 1/9‬‏ - YouTube
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Thank you. I was just about to start looking for the same clip. And rory knew what I was talking about.
 

Kush77

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I doesn't happen often. Shaw in 200 was the last guy to lead the league in scoring and win a title.

Winning the scoring title doesn't makes you less likely to win a title. That just how it works.

Kobe led the league in scoring in 2006 and 2007, and they lost to Boston in 08.
The Lakers then won the titles in 2009 and 2010. Was it because Kobe scored less? No. They just weren't as good as Boston in 2008.

I do remember people saying that about Jordan though. I think because the guy winning the titles at the time was Magic.
 
97Bulls

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CODE_BLUE56 said:
then jordan winning a title while being the league leader in scoring helps the argument about jordan being a winner, not disproves it
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No it doesn't. It was construed as selfish. And winning had to be done through the team.
 
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Kush77 said:
I doesn't happen often. Shaw in 200 was the last guy to lead the league in scoring and win a title.

Winning the scoring title doesn't makes you less likely to win a title. That just how it works.

Kobe led the league in scoring in 2008, and they lost to Boston.
The Lakers then won the titles in 2009 and 2010. Was it because Kobe scored less? No. They just weren't as good as Boston in 2008.

I do remember people saying that about Jordan though. I think because the guy winning the titles at the time was Magic.
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its not just a coincidence jordan is one of the few players to lead the league in scoring AND win a title..its a testament to how good of a player he is

btw lebron led the league in scoring in 2008 not kobe
 

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Rory Sparrow said:
But then what does that have to do with ANYTHING? As I said before, its fact that Michael Jordan won 6 titles and each year he also won the scoring title. So what merit does an incorrect perception have?
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It proves that Michael Jordan acknowledged that there were people saying a scoring champ couldn't win a title.

You didn't seem to believe Bulls97 when he mentioned that. As for what point you and Bulls97 were debating, I don't know, I can't read every post in this massive thread.

This was the perception prior to winning the 6 titles. So obviously the folks with that perception were proven wrong. Just like they were in 2000 with Shaq.
 
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