OT: Who wants to read the CBA?

Rice Cube

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Super 2 status for arbitration:
*Player has to have 2 years but less than 3 years of major league service time
*Player needs to rank in the top 22% of players in service time in that category and
*Player must have 86 days or more of major league service in the immediately preceding season

The 86 days thing could factor into Rizzo's callup. I really do think they just wait until after the ASG then if they want to save $, even though they can afford to give him four arb years.
 

dabynsky

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The 86 days thing could factor into Rizzo's callup. I really do think they just wait until after the ASG then if they want to save $, even though they can afford to give him four arb years.

All right I am trying to make sure I understand how this scenario plays out. If the Cubs call up Rizzo after the all-star break he will have less than a year of service. He would have to play two full seasons after that in order to qualify for Super 2 status which would be after 2014. It says the season immediately precedening which I take to mean as the season before he would be eligible for arbitration (2014). So that would mean that in order to completely avoid Super 2 status Rizzo would have to be sent down in 2014 and only get 86 days in that season to avoid Super 2 status.
 

Rice Cube

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How many service days are left after the ASG? If it's less than 86, he will still have accrued 2 years of service by the end of 2013 assuming he doesn't get sent down at any point, but he wouldn't be eligible for Super Two if I am reading that right. Feel free to correct me but I think that scenario exists.
 

dabynsky

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How many service days are left after the ASG? If it's less than 86, he will still have accrued 2 years of service by the end of 2013 assuming he doesn't get sent down at any point, but he wouldn't be eligible for Super Two if I am reading that right. Feel free to correct me but I think that scenario exists.

I don't think he could have 2 years of service time at the end of 2013 unless they called him up before he got the extra year of control. I mean the Cubs are going to call him up at a point this season when he has less than 1 year of major league service time by the end of this season. So by playing a full year next year he still would be under 2 years at the end of 2013. And the language makes it sound like the 86 days clause only comes into play on the season that he accrued over 2 years of service time. Again feel free to correct me because I am trying to make sure I get it as well.
 

Rice Cube

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I don't think he can get the "between 2 and 3 years with 86 days in the previous year" this year unless he's called up after July actually, based on MLBTR's list. By the time he's accrued 2 years (rest of 2012 + 2013 and some of 2014) I think that takes him out of the running for Super Two. This takes into account his previous time with the Padres at MLB level but I think you figured that in already.
 

dabynsky

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I don't think he can get the "between 2 and 3 years with 86 days in the previous year" this year unless he's called up after July actually, based on MLBTR's list. By the time he's accrued 2 years (rest of 2012 + 2013 and some of 2014) I think that takes him out of the running for Super Two. This takes into account his previous time with the Padres at MLB level but I think you figured that in already.

Okay there are multiple points here, but I think the biggest thing is what year does the phrase immediately preceding season refers in the 86 days clause. I think it applies in Rizzo's case to the 2014 season which he would presumably be playing the whole season and therefore wouldn't apply.

All right lets get down to the nitty gritty of the Rizzo case:
2011-68 days
2012-? but we can assume that the number will be less than 104 so that he has less than 172
2013-1 year + what ever between 2011-2012 (assuming of course less than 1 year)
2014-2 year + what ever between 2011-2012 (this would be the season that the 86 day clause would apply and therefore probably a non-issue with Rizzo)
2015-First year of arbitration if Super 2
2016-Seond year of arbitration
2017-Third year of arby
2018-Fourth year of arby

Is that clearer and or look right?
 

Rice Cube

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Here's the ish with service time:

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_many_service_days_is_a_service_year/

So there are 181 or 182 days of service possible in an entire year. You need 172 to accrue a full year of service.

Rizzo has the 68 days from SD. If he gets 85 this season, that's 157 so definitely less than the 172 for 2012.

If he plays all of 2013, that's 157 + 182 = 339 for a little less than two years of service. They'd have to burn an option or something to make sure he doesn't get Super Two. Hmm. I'm guessing you can't avoid Super Two then if they hold true to this wording.
 

dabynsky

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Here's the ish with service time:

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_many_service_days_is_a_service_year/

So there are 181 or 182 days of service possible in an entire year. You need 172 to accrue a full year of service.

Rizzo has the 68 days from SD. If he gets 85 this season, that's 157 so definitely less than the 172 for 2012.

If he plays all of 2013, that's 157 + 182 = 339 for a little less than two years of service. They'd have to burn an option or something to make sure he doesn't get Super Two. Hmm. I'm guessing you can't avoid Super Two then if they hold true to this wording.

Yeah I think the only way toavoid Super 2 is to keep Rizzo down for even longer, but that seems like a waste of effort to be honest because it means Rizzo probably has to stay down until September and even then it might not matter.
 

Rice Cube

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MLBTR's prospect timeline suggested that all they had to do was keep him down until August to avoid Super Two so maybe there's some loophole there or something we hadn't considered.
 

dabynsky

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MLBTR's prospect timeline suggested that all they had to do was keep him down until August to avoid Super Two so maybe there's some loophole there or something we hadn't considered.

The super 2 section is pretty clear. Perhaps what it is that there are enough guys up that would have between 2 and 3 years of service time by that point that he would be safe or they are just estimating.
 

Rice Cube

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If it's the top 22% then that's probably what I'm missing.
 

dabynsky

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If it's the top 22% then that's probably what I'm missing.

It is, and just another thing with service time you have to get 172 days of service time for it to count as a year. But once you hit 1 year of service time during a season then it doesn't matter how many other days you get beyond that it counts as 1 year. So by the end of next year he probably will have something like 300+ days at the end of 2013, but that will count as 1.000 year of service time heading into 2014.
 

dabynsky

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Actually I think that it would be 1.000 is wrong, but the point is that you can't get more than 1 year of service time in a single season.
 

dabynsky

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So I've gone through the 300 pages pretty thoroughly now three times and I still can't find the section that specifically deals with the rule 4 draft. There is a very detailed section describe the signing pools and penalties for exceeding those pools with international talent, but I can't find the other rules. I will write up what I found about the competitive balance tax, qualifying offer, and international talent stuff over the next couple of days because that will take a bit. And as always I wouldn't mind people looking it over to make sure we are getting the correct reading of things.
 

Rice Cube

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Thanks much, I'm glad I didn't actually miss that section if you couldn't find it either.
 

dabynsky

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Thanks much, I'm glad I didn't actually miss that section if you couldn't find it either.

Yeah I've scanned it twice. I've done keyword searches for "draft", "rule 4", "signing bonus pool", etc. I've only seen references to rule 4 draft in the sections dealing with international amateur talent and qualifying offers for free agents.
 

dabynsky

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The other thing that is interesting is that the Competitive Balance Lottery is mentioned only in the section about qualifying free agent offers.
 

Rice Cube

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The other thing that is interesting is that the Competitive Balance Lottery is mentioned only in the section about qualifying free agent offers.

Is that the thing about how the shitty teams could potentially trade picks or pools of money?
 

dabynsky

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Is that the thing about how the shitty teams could potentially trade picks or pools of money?

I haven't heard anything about trading picks, but it was that teams with the lowest market size and revenue would get put into a lottery to get additional draft picks following the first round. I can't find the specific section that talks about it which makes me think that it isn't included in the CBA along with the rule 4 draft, and I can't find anything so far by googling rule 4 draft to get official rules for that.
 

Rice Cube

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I haven't heard anything about trading picks, but it was that teams with the lowest market size and revenue would get put into a lottery to get additional draft picks following the first round. I can't find the specific section that talks about it which makes me think that it isn't included in the CBA along with the rule 4 draft, and I can't find anything so far by googling rule 4 draft to get official rules for that.

The only places I've seen those items mentioned are in the MLBTR articles (CBA section) and MLB.com article I linked to earlier.
 

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