They are 11th this year at $98M. The biggest difference between how the 2 businesses are run is that JR allows Kenny Williams the freedom to make bold moves to improve the team even despite the low attendance numbers. There is no such freedom allowed to Gar Foreman or John Paxson, yet the team pulled in just a shade under $60M operating income last year, second most in the league.Originally Posted by Uman85
I'm not going to jump all down GarPax's throats for not try to get Howard (which I'm sure they did at one point) or not getting in on this deal. It's not because I'm fine with the way they run the team or have evaluated talent, it's because we simply didn't have anything to offer in a trade that was desirable to any of these teams. Bb..bu..but..Noahz & Stuffz! 1) Orlando did not want large contracts back in a trade, hence why they found another team to take Bynum & also Jason Richardson. Their mantra from day 1 of this Dwightmare was "young cheap players & draft picks", 2 things this team does not possess. 2) Most important of all...DWIGHT HOWARD DID NOT WANT TO PLAY HERE!
As for the 4-team deal itself, it worked out great for the other 3 but Orlando has been left feeling like a hooker after a gangbang...sad, confused & shamefully gooey
You keep ignoring Houston. Have you not heard all the rumors with Houston continuing to pursue Howard? Even when they amnestied Scola, their sights were on clearing cap to get Howard. Why didn't they take the offer they were given by HOU? Why didn't they take the offer they were given by NJ? And surely the Magic could have been offered something else by the trade deadline for Howard.. and he still could have ended up in LA. but ORL could have gotten a better deal out of it.
I'm not surprised he got traded to LA. I don't think anyone is. I think most people including myself are surprised the Magic made THIS deal. It just doesn't make sense..For the past several weeks all we've heard is "LA and Orlando in trade talks" We knew it was going to happen, yet everyone is still bitching because it happened. If you couldn't see this coming, your eyes need to be checked.
Orlando wanted 3 things. Cap relief, a lot of picks and young prospects. They didn't get cap relief from this deal. They took on 2 contracts that will be about 50 million dollars over the next 3-4 years.Orlando made the move they were given. It's really not that bad of a deal for them. They were put in a tough spot and made the move.
I guess 3 first round picks is a lot... but they are protected first round picks and will likely be picks between 20-30. History shows us that players drafted between 20-30 will rarely wind up being any good. between 20-30, there's usually 1-2 guys that end up being any good in each draft class on average. But a lot of those guys either wind up on another team by the time they're any good, or they just wind up being serviceable role players for a team. But if you're trading the best C in the league, you should be getting more than serviceable role players. Or the picks could end up being all-stars. Time will tell. But at this moment, odds are that those players they draft will either suck or won't be with the team for long.
And young prospects... That's definitely not Harrington. Afflalo is almost 27 and isn't really a prospect anymore. He doesn't have much room for improvement and you already know what your're getting out of him. Vucevic is the only young prospect they're getting... and at this point, he just seems average. Who knows though.
Clearly the Magic were interested in the NJ deal. That one was really close to getting done too. But talks were going on too long and time came where the Nets had to make a decision on Brook Lopez which sealed it. They couldn't come to an agreement in time before the Nets had to offer Lopez an extension.Again, it's not about him being happy. It's about Orlando getting rid of him and getting SOMETHING in return. You think if the HOU and NJ deals were "so much better" like you proclaim, the Magic wouldn't take them? Doubt it.
" The Houston Rockets have upped their proposal to a package that could include any combination of the players Kevin Martin, Patrick Patterson, Marcus Morris, and Chandler Parsons, draft rights to three more players, and multiple future first-round picks, according to ESPN. One of the most appealing things for new Orlando general manager Rob Hennigan is the salary Houston would also be willing to take on.
Orlando will not get all of those options in a deal for Howard, although reports suggest the Rockets would be willing to take on the contracts of Glen Davis, Jason Richardson, and Chris Duhon. "
You don't think that offer was much better than what ORL got now? Why didn't the Magic do it? who knows. Clearly the Rockets were interested in giving up a lot for Howard.
and that would have been exactly what ORL wanted. Cap relief, picks and prospects.
Which is why I questioned whether or not Hennigan was high. If the Rockets deal was really there and if they really were willing to give up that much, ORL is stupid as fuck for passing it up.
Lol...this is hilarious...don't believe the hype man. JR spends money. How quick everyone forgets Reindsorf destroying the market with his Albert Belle signing. Other owners were pissed with Reinsdorf. I even heard Reinsdorf asked Frank Thomas who he wanted...Belle or Bonds. Thomas chose Belle.
How has the narrative changed from "Reinsdorf spends Bulls money on the White Sox because he loves baseball so much..." to "Reinsdorf is cheap with everybody..."?
This is getting to be a bit much.
The Dwight to Bulls dream was just that. A dream. Realistically, he was never coming here. That's one reason why I'm happy the trade got done. We can stop talking about it.
and I agree that all 3 teams other than ORL won the deal. Philly really upgraded at C.. even if it meant losing Iggy, they got better. Denver is already pretty stacked with Lawson, Chandler, Gallo, McGee, Faried, etc. Adding Iggy will only help. Obviously, the Lakers upgraded at C and didn't give up anyone else. It's weird that the team giving up the best player is the team that winds up getting shafted. At least when the Nuggets traded Melo they got back a lot of talent in return.
That is because of that whole luxury tax thing. Something that I believe 80% of the league avoided last year. It would be bad for business to let Paxson and Foreman run wild with a luxury tax (that is far more punitive than MLB's version) in place.
I don't think the new LT rules were in place last year. I think they're starting after next season. Teams were just shedding some salary to prepare for it. But the same teams that were shedding salary [the Lakers for example] have just added more anyway. I don't think the new LT is going to stop the richest owners from spending. I highly doubt money is an issue for mikhail prokhorov, Buss, Dolan, cuban, etc. Those guys will continue going deep into the tax if it means getting great players to compete for a title.
wouldn't be fair to compare the bulls to the rest of the league. Not only are we in a bigger market, we're also competing for a championship. Teams like charlotte have no incentive to pay the tax at all. Contenders might have a reason to pay the tax. How many contenders are paying the tax this year/will be paying it next year?
Guess you missed the sarcasm there? Wasn't actually serious.
Clearly he's spending some money on the White Sox...pretty obvious by looking at the numbers lol.
NBA Redraft Roster
PG-Derrick Rose
SG-Manu Ginobili
SF-Gerald Wallace
PF-Pau Gasol
C-Dwight Howard
Bench
PG-Kyle Lowry
SG-Wesley Matthews
SF-Lamar Odom
PF-Amare Stoudamire
C-Marcin Gortat
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No one on Houston intrigues me honestly. It's not a horrible trade at all for Orlando, at least give it a few years to play out.
No it's not a bad trade for orlando at all. Anyways, On a completely different note, I got this bag of magic beans that i want to sell you. You interested?
If beans aren't your thing, I got this bridge in brooklyn...
Steve Nash for future draft picks.
Dwight Howard for Bynum and useless draft picks.
Pau Gasol for Javaris Crittenton, Arron Mckie, and Kwame Brown
Kobe Bryant for Vlade Divac
Wonder not Scottie, the Bulls will trade Rose to the Lakers for the tombstone of Smush Parker.
That Heat vs. Lakers finals next summer is going to be sick!
teams making big moves....while we battled with the bucks for the services of Kirk Hinrich
Prokhrov has yet to pay the luxury tax. The Knicks paid 200million dollars in luxury taxes since 2002-2003...they have only made the playoffs the last 2 years. Both years they did NOT PAY a luxury tax, yet they improved their roster.
People don't want to accept that the Bulls are in a holding pattern for a reason...spending money just to spend is stupid.
Paxson and Forman realize that they need a second star player. But then again...people didn't like Lebron, Carmelo, Howard...and read on here that one person doesn't want Bynum on the Bulls. Never mind the fact that he is one of the NBA's best big men. No thanks.
For others, this is about not spending money on they players THEY LIKE...which is why the same names pop up in these conversations. Unfortunately, these names that are popping up are not superstars or even stars.
The fans are confused as to what the Bulls are doing...well, some of them. The Bulls are most definitely not confused.
This has been my issue with the constant whining on this forum. It's often over guys that aren't even that good and certainly won't get you over the top.
Then the people who are in agreement that Howard would be a good fit, pan Bulls management because they do nothing to acquire Howard, ignoring the fact that Howard has repeatedly turned down the Bulls and the Bulls aren't going to be like the Lakers and trade away all their assets for one year of Howard where he can then run away. Plus you have the whole issue of if he doesn't want to play here, he may just whine the entire season, which causes a lot of other problems for the team. This is what the superstar league is now a days. The Bulls pretty much have to find a superstar who will be okay with the city of Chicago.
Except they just gave up Bynum and a protected 1st rounder. Yup...all their assets gone.
NBA Redraft Roster
PG-Derrick Rose
SG-Manu Ginobili
SF-Gerald Wallace
PF-Pau Gasol
C-Dwight Howard
Bench
PG-Kyle Lowry
SG-Wesley Matthews
SF-Lamar Odom
PF-Amare Stoudamire
C-Marcin Gortat
Hidden Content
I meant if we were to get involved in a trade. We would have to give up more than just one player. Why? Because Bynum is better than any of our players not named Rose. Bynum also is an expiring contract, while all of our trade assets have many more years to go on their contracts.
Well yes, but you made it sound as if the Lakers were dumping the team for Dwight. Obviously Bynum is better than anyone we have other than Rose. If we had a player of his caliber, we might not even be in this position.
At the same time, if you look at who the Magic got, those contracts aren't expiring deals or even that great of players. Afflalo is decent, but far from a building piece. I think his contract is like 6-7M a year or something. Al Harrington is simply a bad contract at this point. The couple prospects they got from Philly aren't even proven to be decent yet. So I'm not sure why we couldn't try to send one or two of our guys whose contracts wouldn't be as long (in the case of Deng and Boozer) while at the same time being better players than those they got. I guess the only young guys we have are Teague and Butler, but we could ship them off if they wanted them.I'm just saying...you look at what the Magic got and you're pretty sure the Bulls could've offered them a better package than what they got. Now it's possible that the Magic just want to tank for the next 4 years...in which case I guess they did what they set out to do.
NBA Redraft Roster
PG-Derrick Rose
SG-Manu Ginobili
SF-Gerald Wallace
PF-Pau Gasol
C-Dwight Howard
Bench
PG-Kyle Lowry
SG-Wesley Matthews
SF-Lamar Odom
PF-Amare Stoudamire
C-Marcin Gortat
Hidden Content
LoL, did you just say the Bulls are competing for a championship?
With what?
The only thing the Bulls will be competing for is a 7th or 8th spot in the playoffs.
This is getting to be a bit much.
Last edited by scottiepippen1994; 08-10-2012 at 01:02 PM.
Well Prokhorov has only been the owner for 2 years. The team he had was the team he had. He tried getting LBJ/Bosh/Wade just like we did, but couldn't. Next year though, the Nets are estimated to be 12 million over the luxury tax level. He's also estimated to pay 260 million dollars in luxury tax until 2016 for just Williams, Lopez, Wallace, Humphries and johnson. That's not including all the other guys they'll have on the roster. He also said this when asked about the LT: "I am only interested in what will bring us a championship team," Prokhorov said. "That is the sole criterion." So clearly money isn't an issue for him if it means getting players that will help him win a title. Same would apply for Buss, Dolan, Cuban, etc.
And I'm not saying having a high pay roll = titles. Obviously, the Knicks are an example of that. But the Knicks also spent money stupidly on players they were overly high on. And yeah, the 2 years they were under the Tax level they made the playoffs.. but they weren't a threat to win it all. They totaled 1 win in 2 post-seasons.
But while being over the tax level doesn't mean you'll be playing for a title, it seems like every year the team that wins it is paying the tax. sometimes, they're way over the tax level. Like the Lakers and Mavs for example. The Lakers payroll was over 90 million last time they won a title, and the Mavs payroll was around 93 million when they won theirs. There also seems to be a correlation between teams that suck and their payrolls, which is usually low.. like around 45-50 million. And then there's everyone in between.. the teams that spend between 50-65 million. most of those teams are just the "middle of the pack teams." And that's where the Bulls have been for the most part over the last 10 years. spending between 50-65 million a year, not paying the tax but at the same time being good enough to make the playoffs, but not being good enough to win the title.
For this season, yeah. It's dumb to go out spending money on players that aren't good enough to put us over the top.People don't want to accept that the Bulls are in a holding pattern for a reason...spending money just to spend is stupid.
Well what we want/don't want doesn't effect Paxson or Forman at all. They realized we needed a 2nd star player, but the reason why we didn't get them wasn't because some people didn't like the idea of Rose/LBJ together or because fans didn't want to give up too much for Melo/Howard. The reason why we didn't get LBJ, wade and Boah is because they didn't wanna play here. We didn't trade for Howard because he wouldn't commit here. I don't know what was going on with the melo trade, but I'm sure there's a reason why that didn't get done. I know that. You know that. A lot of other people know that. Blaming Paxson, Foreman and Jerry for that is just dumb because at least they tried.Paxson and Forman realize that they need a second star player. But then again...people didn't like Lebron, Carmelo, Howard...and read on here that one person doesn't want Bynum on the Bulls. Never mind the fact that he is one of the NBA's best big men. No thanks.
For others, this is about not spending money on they players THEY LIKE...which is why the same names pop up in these conversations. Unfortunately, these names that are popping up are not superstars or even stars.
The fans are confused as to what the Bulls are doing...well, some of them. The Bulls are most definitely not confused.
I just think the frustration stems deeper than what has been going on the past 2 years. When you see teams with less assets than the Bulls had year after year making block-buster deals that improve their team, you start to get frustrated and wonder why we aren't getting stuff like this done.
In the past, back in the "baby Bulls" era, we had a lot of attractive pieces that a lot of teams wanted. Deng, Kirk, Noah, Tyrus, gordon, etc. were all guys we could have easily packaged for a star player. And since a lot of them were on their rookie contracts and we had more cap space to work with, we could have done a lot to really improve the team and make us a title contender. Yeah, maybe that would have meant going deep into the tax, but who cares? The Bulls are "holding pattern" for a good reason right now. There's no way for us to improve to the point where we'll compete for a title, so it's dumb to spend money. But in the past, the Bulls would stand pat just 'cause they wanted to watch the team grow and let them develop. If you're the thunder and you have Durant, Westbrook, Green/Ibaka and Harden, that's a good idea. Those guys had a shit ton of potential. When you have guys like Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Tyrus and Noah... yeah. Especially when so many teams were interested in those guys. If it wasn't for crazy luck and getting Rose, the Bulls probably would have missed the playoffs 2 years outta the last 4, maybe more.
Look at the Celtics trade for KG as an example. The Celtics gave up a 21 year old Al Jefferson who was coming off a 16/11 season, a 20 year old Gerald Green who was coming off a season where he averaged 10 PPG and seemed like he had a lot of potential, a 24 year old Ryan Gnomes who was coming off a 12/6 season and also seemed like he had a good future and a first round pick + Sebastian Telfair for a 30 year old KG. Can you ever see the Bulls making a deal like that? I honestly can't.
I think Jerry has proven that he's willing to spend money on players that showed they are worth it. But overall, I feel like the Bulls have been pretty conservative with their money and decision making over the last decade and it hasn't translated in titles. It's been nearly 15 years since we last won a title.. i think people are just starting to become very impatient.. and the "let's see how this team grows and develops" mentality the Bulls seemed to have doesn't help.
Jerry Reinsdorf really isn't helping himself though. Few years ago, as well all know, he had his famous quote where he said he'd trade in all 6 NBA championships for a word series title. Then recently he said baseball is a religion and that baseball is american.. and basketball is just a game. To top that off, He has made over a billion dollars since owning the Bulls but hasn't really spent over 70 million dollars on the bulls roster. We sell out all our games and the ticket prices are high.. but he still isn't dishing out a lot [well compared to other teams] of money on the Bulls. At the same time, the White sox can barely crack the top 20 in attendance, he isn't making much profit off the Sox and he's dishing out close to or over 100 million dollars each year on the Sox. Is it wrong for Jerry to favor one team over the other? Not at all. It's his money and they're his teams. But I don't think it's unreasonable for Bulls fans to question Jerry's heart when to comes to the Bulls.
Last edited by BNB; 08-10-2012 at 01:13 PM.
I support this post.
Uhm, Since when did the NBA have parity? Based on championships the past 32 years I would say none.
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haha. Sp, you thanked my post a minute and half after I posted it. You couldn't possibly have read what I wrote that fast haha.
Jerry never listened to Michael Jordan and the Bulls won titles because of it. You would think he would learn to never listen to his superstars. Frank Thomas cost Chicago Titles!!
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