Free Agent Tackles would Break the Bears Bank

Dejo

Godfather of FTO
Joined:
Apr 4, 2011
Posts:
16,506
Liked Posts:
23,138
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Real Salt Lake
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Utah Jazz
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Utah Utes
How about we build young :)
 

botfly10

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 19, 2011
Posts:
32,868
Liked Posts:
26,844
Yeah... teams must must MUST have an OL pipeline going and should be drafting mid to late round developmental prospects nearly every year.

The real issue the Bears are confronting right now is that JA shut this pipeline off for far too many years. It was detrimental to experience along the OL. The result is that the Bears now have an OL composed almost entirely of undeveloped players that are forced to learn on the job.

It was all fine and good that JA found success with FAs for a couple years. But he failed miserably by not bringing in young players to develop behind them.
 

Monk

I hate acronyms
Donator
Joined:
Oct 17, 2010
Posts:
15,976
Liked Posts:
6,451
Location:
Greenville, NC
Jake Long has allowed 7 sacks this season with more holding penalties than Webb. His back may be a question as he hasn't been the same since injury. Maybe he just needs more time. Smith is a RT. Likely not worth what they'll get. Clady and Bushrod aren't going anywhere. Albert looks to have extablished himself as a solid LT and will get PAID. It will be interesting to see if we get involved.

I didn't realize Long was playing so poorly. I was thinking if he was a FA, he would be the most sought after and we could reasonable get Albert. I think Albert and Levirte would make Jay very happy. Along with everyone else on offense.
 

botfly10

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Jun 19, 2011
Posts:
32,868
Liked Posts:
26,844
OL is perhaps the most important position group of all to have a developmental pipeline going. It is perhaps the only group where it is reasonable to expect teams to consistently develop guys from the 2nd round on into solid, long term starters. Especially with interior OL.
 

Monk

I hate acronyms
Donator
Joined:
Oct 17, 2010
Posts:
15,976
Liked Posts:
6,451
Location:
Greenville, NC
Interesting article. Shows how impossible it is to get 5 quality FAs to play the offensive line. You just can't afford the price tag.

That said, the last time the Bears had a good OL, it was composed mainly of free agents. Kruetz was the only original Bear. They paid big money to John Tait, who was ok, but they really hit home runs with Ruben Brown and Fred Miller, getting good years from guys who were thought to be washed up.

But even if the Bears were to strike gold with their OL FAs, I still don't think they have the cap space available that the 2006 Bears had for the OL because the 2012 Bears has so much money tied up in the skill positions. Its like the Bears built a team in reverse, so now you have a top heavy offense with no foundation. There are two ways to get around it:

1) Draft all your own OLs. They will be on their first contract making relatively little money. Unfortunately, the Bears can't even get decent linemen with their premium picks, so I have little faith that the Bears would be able to draft 1 or 2 decent linemen in the later rounds, much less 4 or 5. But this might be their only option because the alternative is...

2) Dump defensive veteran salaries. Rely on your drafting prowess of defensive players and use a "plug and play" model on defense to save money. Use that cap space to acquire FA OLs. To me, this plan makes the most sense because, allegedly, Lovie Smith is a good defensive coach and the Bears are good at finding defensive players through the draft. I don't know how true that is, but this plan would be the best way to free up cap space. That said, the Bears organization is pretty obsessed with having big name players on defense, and I don't think the Bears organization has the balls to cut guys like Urlacher and Peppers.

Don't know what Emery's track record is with OL but I guess we can hope he can find talent in the draft and build that way. I think if they dump veteran defenders, that might as well dump Lovie and the coaching staff and start a complete rebuild. I think that is a couple years away if this staff can't get it done. Does that make any sense?
 

Nick80

Guest
Nice read. Cheers Cago!

So perhaps the Bears look to a Guard in the first two rounds? (most likely the second) that would be my opinion though. The cliche 'Rome wasn't built in a day' doesn't begin to cover the state of the Bears O-line in this instance does it?
 

-Cago34-

CCS Mock Draft Champion
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
7,467
Liked Posts:
7,236
Location:
Booty
I don't completely agree that the OL has been neglected by Jerry for years. Other position groups had to be sure'd up, and sometimes, it just happens that way.

Imo, the interior of the OL is what needs to be addressed before either T position. Webb, and Carimi are both young and still developing. Having an competent interior would really speed their maturation process long term, and hide a lot of their mistakes, short term.

Not to mention, our run game...thought we wanted a power run game? A stout interior would allow that to blossom as well.
 

Monk

I hate acronyms
Donator
Joined:
Oct 17, 2010
Posts:
15,976
Liked Posts:
6,451
Location:
Greenville, NC
I don't completely agree that the OL has been neglected by Jerry for years. Other position groups had to be sure'd up, and sometimes, it just happens that way.

Imo, the interior of the OL is what needs to be addressed before either T position. Webb, and Carimi are both young and still developing. Having an competent interior would really speed their maturation process long term, and hide a lot of their mistakes, short term.

Not to mention, our run game...thought we wanted a power run game? A stout interior would allow that to blossom as well.

I think what lacked was scouting of OL more than neglecting. They drafted a few they just didn't turn out to be any good so far. I'm going to be disappointed if Levirte is available and we don't get him. Or some interior guy that is established and then they have flexibility in the draft.
 

-Cago34-

CCS Mock Draft Champion
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
7,467
Liked Posts:
7,236
Location:
Booty
I think what lacked was scouting of OL more than neglecting. They drafted a few they just didn't turn out to be any good so far. I'm going to be disappointed if Levirte is available and we don't get him. Or some interior guy that is established and then they have flexibility in the draft.
Well, hopefully Emery does a better job in scouting...that's why he was hired right? His background as a scout...

It's a double edged sword, if we sign a FA to have draft flexibility then our Cap flexibility will suffer. Imo, considering our Cap, and current players that are about to get paid, I'm not expecting any top level OL'men to be signed in free agency.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
Facts

1. J'Marcus Webb is much improved and has been good other than 2 really bad games.

2. The LG and RT positions are bigger concerns than Webb.

3. Webb is our 2nd best OLmen, those of you who say Garza watch a run play, any of them.

4. By improving at RT and LG we will get better at every position on the OL. The OL is not individual players it is a unit, more so than any other position, and when your LG is getting worked in pass protection it makes your LT look bad.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
The blind Webb hate has got to stop, we have bigger issues than a guy who essentiallly shut down Jared Allen, but is inconsistent.

The LG position is a bigger issue as we have nothing there and pressure up the middle kills an passing game.

The RT is a bigger issue as we have a massive 1st round question mark at that position.

My scenario that works with this predicament,

Sign Andre Smith 5 years 25 million/12 guaranteed

*I like signing a guy who can play RT because I do not think that Carimi can do it at all.

Draft

1. OG/C Jonathan Cooper [UNC]
4. C Braxton Cave [Notre Dame]

Scenarios

*Carimi can play RT

LT: Webb
LG: Smith
C: Cooper
RG: Louis
RT: Carimi

*Carimi cannot play RT

LT: Webb
LG: Cooper
C: Garza
RG: Louis
RT: Smith

*Carimi can actually play OG

LT: Webb
LG: Carimi
C: Cooper
RG: Louis
RT: Smith

*Louis is not healthy at the beginning of the season

LT: Webb
LG: Cooper
C: Garza
RG: Carimi
RT: Smith
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
Webb playing LT is the biggest issue, IMO. Everything hinges on that position. The position commands top dollar in the FA market, and the position itself is on an island. One would think that finding some mediocre guys to plug into the interior of the line would be manageable (although the Bears have struck out so far), but I don't think you can just put a "body" at LT and think the problem is solved. That type of thinking is exactly why the Bears are in the position they are now.

Its funny to me that people are so quick to write off Carimi, a 1st round pick whose played about half-a-season in the NFL in his career, while being ok with Webb at LT, as if that position is a lock.

Carimi has never shown 1 game as good as Webb is the problem. This season Carimi is probaly 2/11 in games he played well and Webb is 9/11.

Webb is better than a lot of LTs in the NFL and despite 2 meltdown games has been better than Jake Long for example. Webb is more than just some stiff playing the position and this week alone Ross Tucker and an NFL scout said as much. If we released Webb I would guarantee at least 10 waiver claims if not more would be placed on him.

Do you think Webb was just lucky in the other 9 games this season when he played well?

-The OL is a unit and while LT is the most important position it is not that much more important than LG or RT.

-We could not judge Jay Cutler until he has a real WR, so we cannot judge J'Marcus Webb until he has a COMPENTENT LG beside him because in pass protection the guy beside you is as important as you are.

Improve the OL as a unit and Webb will get better and he already is okay.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
Rory this is an important debate and I hope people at Halas Hall are having it,

But if you look around the league the best LTs in the NFL are on lines that are pretty good and offer them a chance to be successful,

Nate Solder is having an incredible year, but he has Mankins beside him and Vollmer across from him making it easier.

Ryan Clady is awesome, he has Zane Beadle who is really good beside him and Orlando Franklin on the other side.

Joe Staley, who I think is one of the best LTs in the NFL has 1st round pick Mike Iupati beside him and 1st round pick Anthony Davis across from him.

Joe Thomas, Duane Brown, Branden Albert, Jermon Bushrod and D'Brickshaw Ferguson all play on talented lines with other talented players.

God even Sam Baker looks servicable when you put him with a very good LG [Blalock] and a very good RT [Clabo].
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
I don't think many (any) team would make Webb their starting LT. I highly doubt the Dolphins would trade Jake Long for Webb. If teams were to pick up Webb on waivers, it would be due to Webb's low salary and ability to provide depth, not to install him at LT.

I don't think Webb has played well in 9 games. One problem with Webb is that he always needs to be accounted for...the Bears gameplans are limited due to Webb's inability to handle DEs by himself.

And I think you have it wrong. Its not the Bears offense hamstringing Webb because they haven't surrounded Webb with talent, I think its Webb limiting the Bears offense.

Last game he played about as well as someone can against Jared Allen.

I agree that Webb does not provide the freedom that Ryan Clady does when calling an offense and if we can get Ryan Clady and work it in the budget we should. But the Bears are more hamstringed by the play at LG and RT than they are by Webb.

Do you not think Carimi and LG are bigger concerns in the offensive meeting room?

Maybe the best move with Webb is to get a LT, if we can afford it, and move Webb to the right side. But Webb will be starting for this team for no other reason than he is significantly better than Gabe Carimi.
 

JosMin

Entirely too much tuna
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '22
Joined:
Nov 22, 2011
Posts:
8,201
Liked Posts:
3,272
Location:
Jeffersonville, Indiana
I think its easier to find a LG or a RT than a LT. The Bears shouldn't be freeing up big cap space to sign a LG, nor should they be spending #1 picks on RTs (irony). Thats my main point when I say that LT should be the Bears top issue regarding the OL.

You asked if Carimi and LG are bigger concerns in the offensive meeting room, and I honestly think they aren't. There isn't a whole lot schematically you can do differently. As long as the LG follows his assignment and doesn't get immediately shoved over, he should be fine (although this almost never happens!). Same thing kind of held true when Carimi was at RT, and holds true now that he's at LG. Conversely, as a product of his position, you can't trust Webb to do anything. You always have to account for him blowing his assignment or getting beaten.

Here is my unqualified "scouts" view: Webb is a poor pass blocker and run blocker. You don't really want him starting at either LT (because of his poor pass blocking), nor at RT (because of his poor run blocking). Carimi is a horrendous pass blocker and a good run blocker. You don't want him starting at LT (because of his horrendous pass blocking), nor do you want him starting at RT (because of his horrendous pass blocking).

Hmm.

Don't worry, we're going to sprinkle some Special person dust on the Dolphins FO so they don't resign Jake Long, their best player and arguably the best LT in football, and we'll swoop in and drop a 7 year, $100 million dollar mega contract on everyone's collective asses.
 

Dogstar

CCS Donator
Donator
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
2,416
Liked Posts:
1,160
Location:
NW Suburbs
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Northwestern Wildcats
  2. Wisconsin Badgers
By Kay Paradiso on Nov 29, 1:18p


2013-------------------------------------------------2014
Zack Bowman Door------------------------ Robbie Gould Keep
Jason Campbell Price is Right---------------Armando Allen Conditional
Nate Collins Keep-------------------------Kyle Adams Conditional
Kelvin Hayden Conditional------------------Blake Costanzo Keep
Geno Hayes Door-------------------------Dane Sanzenbacher Door
Israel Idonije Door-------------------------Devin Hester Door
Lance Louis Keep-------------------------Matt Spaeth Keep
Patrick Mannelly Ditka-------------------------Jay Cutler Keep
Henry Melton Keep-------------------------Craig Steltz Keep
D.J. Moore Door-------------------------Charles Tillman Keep
Cheta Ozougwu Door-------------------------Matt Toeaina Door
Chilo Rachal Door-------------------------Tim Jennings Keep
Nick Roach Keep------------------------- Kellen Davis Door
Jonathan Scott Keep------------------------- Roberto Garza Door
Chris Spencer Door--------------------------J'Marcus Webb Keep
Brian Urlacher Keep-------------------------Edwin Williams Keep
Anthony Walters Keep------------------------- Corey Wootton Keep
Andre Gurode Door--------------------------Major Wright Keep

Patrick Mannelly Ditka?
 

-Cago34-

CCS Mock Draft Champion
Donator
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
7,467
Liked Posts:
7,236
Location:
Booty
Webb is on his way to being serviceable, I hope the same for Carimi...our interior is terrible and happens to be the most cost effective/easily draftable positions to upgrade.

We won't have money for an FA LT, and we'll never(hopefully) be in the top 5 of a draft to get a blue chip T...we're stuck with Webb, which isn't all that bad if he continue's to improve.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
I think its easier to find a LG or a RT than a LT. The Bears shouldn't be freeing up big cap space to sign a LG, nor should they be spending #1 picks on RTs (irony). Thats my main point when I say that LT should be the Bears top issue regarding the OL.

You asked if Carimi and LG are bigger concerns in the offensive meeting room, and I honestly think they aren't. There isn't a whole lot schematically you can do differently. As long as the LG follows his assignment and doesn't get immediately shoved over, he should be fine (although this almost never happens!). Same thing kind of held true when Carimi was at RT, and holds true now that he's at LG. Conversely, as a product of his position, you can't trust Webb to do anything. You always have to account for him blowing his assignment or getting beaten.

Here is my unqualified "scouts" view: Webb is a poor pass blocker and run blocker. You don't really want him starting at either LT (because of his poor pass blocking), nor at RT (because of his poor run blocking). Carimi is a horrendous pass blocker and a good run blocker. You don't want him starting at LT (because of his horrendous pass blocking), nor do you want him starting at RT (because of his horrendous pass blocking).

Hmm.

This is my scouts view, Webb is an average pass blocker who does not use his hands well enough to keep speed players off his body. Webb is a very good run blocker and many big runs this year were because of his blocks. He is big physical and gets to the 2nd level pretty regularly.

As was said in the article in the other thread he is just like Backus, totally average.

Ross Tucker said something similar "I don’t think (left tackle) J’Marcus (Webb) is as bad as everyone else does. I think J’Marcus is OK. I think they should give him more help sometimes. "

But we will have to agree to disagree I guess.
 

WindyCity

CCS Hall of Fame
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
Posts:
30,816
Liked Posts:
35,721
Don't worry, we're going to sprinkle some Special person dust on the Dolphins FO so they don't resign Jake Long, their best player and arguably the best LT in football, and we'll swoop in and drop a 7 year, $100 million dollar mega contract on everyone's collective asses.

I cannot tell if this is sarcasm, but Long is not even close to the best LT in the NFL.
 

Top