The Illini Basketball Thread

Gustavus Adolphus · Sep 17, 2014

FirstTimer said:
I don't think Illinois needs to drop THAT far down their recruiting boards for guys but I agree they need to quit targeting likely one and done guys for the most part unless they think they have a tremendous shot with them. A lot of these guys they are targeting they really don't have a shot with right now and it's a waste of time. I agree with your general point but I don't think it's dire enough where Illinois needs to start recruiting like Butler. They need to start recruiting like MSU, Wisconsin, etc. as far as profile and stay length go.

The biggest example I can think of is Frank Kaminsky. I realize he wouldn't have been a Groce recruit - but there is no reason why he shouldn't have signed with Illinois.

HighJump31 · Sep 17, 2014

Gustavus Adolphus said:
I realize he wouldn't have been a Groce recruit - but there is no reason why he shouldn't have signed with Illinois.

Kaminsky wasn't that great in HS. He wasn't the world beater that he is today, and a lot of that has to do with Bo Ryan's system. He had offers from Bradley, DePaul, Northwestern, NIU, SIU, and Wisconsin. Plus Illinois signed the #9 C in the nation that year in Nnanna Egwu. Obviously now you can call it a miss, but the "no reason why he shouldn't have signed with Illinois" doesn't fit here. Kaminsky wasn't a can't miss player back then, and he wasn't even an Illinois-type player at that moment in time. I get that's the point of your post, but Illinois never will be a school that searches for diamonds in the rough like Butler and Wisconsin does.

JimJohnson · Sep 18, 2014

HighJump31 said:
Kaminsky wasn't that great in HS. He wasn't the world beater that he is today, and a lot of that has to do with Bo Ryan's system. He had offers from Bradley, DePaul, Northwestern, NIU, SIU, and Wisconsin. Plus Illinois signed the #9 C in the nation that year in Nnanna Egwu. Obviously now you can call it a miss, but the "no reason why he shouldn't have signed with Illinois" doesn't fit here. Kaminsky wasn't a can't miss player back then, and he wasn't even an Illinois-type player at that moment in time. I get that's the point of your post, but Illinois never will be a school that searches for diamonds in the rough like Butler and Wisconsin does.

One thing that is a little annoying about Illinois is that they never seem to be able to find that 2 or 3* player that ends up turning into a superstar.

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Parade_Rain said:
I don't want to hear any more shit about them being in a predicament when they aren't.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-ba...kafor-cliff-alexander?iadid=Nav_Sport_NCAAB_1

LOL pretty rosy outlook and BS in that article. You're talking about a team that last year at one point lost 8 straight games and 10 of 11. Which included losses to NU and Nebraska. Saying the Illinois program is "doing fine" and just needs to mature based around an NCAA tournament loss two seasons ago and a close loss to Michigan(a team that 10 days before had beaten Illinois by 31 at home) last year is hilariously bad.

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Parade_Rain said:
Like MSU? Izzo wasn't able to connect in anyway to the CPL as of late. You do know Nunn and Tate played for Simeon, right? Nunn is a high quality Big Ten player. Tate is a pure PG. Groce doesn't need your assistance figuring out how to recruit and where.

Way to miss the ENTIRE point AGAIN. My issue isn't Izzo connecting with CPL kids or not it's that Izzo isn't chasing one and done's like it's going out of style. My point is Groce needs to start targeting more multi-year kids the way Izzo, etc do. The CPL has ZERO to do with it. In fact I never mentioned the CPL, and Nunn and Tate aren't one and done players...so What exactly are you even trying to say?

Do you enjoy being a blithering idiot?

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

HighJump31 said:
Kaminsky wasn't that great in HS. He wasn't the world beater that he is today, and a lot of that has to do with Bo Ryan's system. He had offers from Bradley, DePaul, Northwestern, NIU, SIU, and Wisconsin. Plus Illinois signed the #9 C in the nation that year in Nnanna Egwu. Obviously now you can call it a miss, but the "no reason why he shouldn't have signed with Illinois" doesn't fit here. Kaminsky wasn't a can't miss player back then, and he wasn't even an Illinois-type player at that moment in time. I get that's the point of your post, but Illinois never will be a school that searches for diamonds in the rough like Butler and Wisconsin does.

I think the point is that if you're pursuing guys like Bill Cole you should have ID'd and gotten a guy like Kaminsky.

Parade_Rain · Sep 18, 2014

FirstTimer said:
Way to miss the ENTIRE point AGAIN. My issue isn't Izzo connecting with CPL kids or not it's that Izzo isn't chasing one and done's like it's going out of style. My point is Groce needs to start targeting more multi-year kids the way Izzo, etc do. The CPL has ZERO to do with it. In fact I never mentioned the CPL, and Nunn and Tate aren't one and done players...so What exactly are you even trying to say?

Do you enjoy being a blithering idiot?

There you go again with immature personal attacks. It's pretty lame, even for the internet.

You even liked a post suggesting one of the top 15 programs in the nation in all-time wins should be grabbing 2* recruits and making them super stars. That is absolutely fucking laughable. Egwu, as raw as he was, was even a 4* according to Rivals. 4* players usually aren't one and dones. Illinois has at least four 4* players on their roster for this 2014-2015 season. They don't need 2*. That's a Northwestern/Wisconsin thing.

FirstTimer said:
I think the point is that if you're pursuing guys like Bill Cole you should have ID'd and gotten a guy like Kaminsky.

The coach who identified Cole is no longer employed by the university. Groce is recruiting to his system.

Parade_Rain · Sep 18, 2014

FirstTimer said:
LOL pretty rosy outlook and BS in that article. You're talking about a team that last year at one point lost 8 straight games and 10 of 11. Which included losses to NU and Nebraska. Saying the Illinois program is "doing fine" and just needs to mature based around an NCAA tournament loss two seasons ago and a close loss to Michigan(a team that 10 days before had beaten Illinois by 31 at home) last year is hilariously bad.

More bunk. The previous year they went 2-7 in the B1G before a last second win against Indiana began a push to the NCAA tournament. Groce was late the first year to recruiting because the hiring process took a long time and that team has some real holes. It remains to be seen what holes this year's team has.

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Parade_Rain said:
You even liked a post suggesting one of the top 15 programs in the nation in all-time wins should be grabbing 2* recruits and making them super stars.

Again, NOT THE POINT OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING. He wasn't saying it should be "routine" he's making a larger point about development of talent. Christ. He doesn't even frame it as a big issue because he directly calls it "little". Are completely incapable of thought or reading things in proper context? It's completely impossible to carry on a conversation with you on this forum.

Parade_Rain said:
That's a Northwestern/Wisconsin thing.

HERP DERP!

It's almost like I said the EXACT SAME THING earlier:

Prope/Gustavas said:
top trying to go after these 4 and 5 star recruits, focus on the 2's and 3's and find yourself an X's and O's coach that can plug them into a system that works.

I don't think Illinois needs to drop THAT far down their recruiting boards for guys but I agree they need to quit targeting likely one and done guys for the most part unless they think they have a tremendous shot with them. A lot of these guys they are targeting they really don't have a shot with right now and it's a waste of time. I agree with your general point but I don't think it's dire enough where Illinois needs to start recruiting like Butler. They need to start recruiting like MSU, Wisconsin, etc. as far as profile and stay length go.

Parade_Rain said:
More bunk. The previous year they went 2-7 in the B1G before a last second win against Indiana began a push to the NCAA tournament. Groce was late the first year to recruiting because the hiring process took a long time and that team has some real holes. It remains to be seen what holes this year's team has.

What about what I said was "bunk"? Groce and the results have actually gotten worse since he's been there. The article directly mentions it and gives the timeline. He went from a basket away from a Sweet 16 appearance so losing 10 of 11 and 8 straight in Big10 play. There is rose colored glasses, and then there is the paragraph you pulled from that article which is completely devoid of thought or context because it ignores how awful that Illinois team was last season and instead focuses on a close loss to Michigan who they had lost to 10 days before by 30+.

[video=youtube;zDAmPIq29ro]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro[/video]

Parade_Rain · Sep 18, 2014

FirstTimer said:
Again, NOT THE POINT OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING. He wasn't saying it should be "routine" he's making a larger point about development of talent. Christ. He doesn't even frame it as a big issue because he directly calls it "little". Are completely incapable of thought or reading things in proper context? It's completely impossible to carry on a conversation with you on this forum.

Interesting. I didn't use the word "routine". You have. Check your reading skills, herpderp.

FirstTimer said:
It's almost like I said the EXACT SAME THING earlier:

Great. Let's name some recruits who blew up that other programs should have offered and didn't. Not an Illinois problem.

FirstTimer said:
What about what I said was "bunk"? Groce and the results have actually gotten worse since he's been there. The article directly mentions it and gives the timeline. He went from a basket away from a Sweet 16 appearance so losing 10 of 11 and 8 straight in Big10 play. There is rose colored glasses, and then there is the paragraph you pulled from that article which is completely devoid of thought or context because it ignores how awful that Illinois team was last season and instead focuses on a close loss to Michigan who they had lost to 10 days before by 30+.

You seem to read what you want. He's filled holes the last few years. One of those Illinois had was shooting. I know. In basketball shooting is an important skill, particularly from 3. They tried to fill it with a transfer who didn't get a waiver. Well, now that Abrams is down it seems that may work out. It remains to be seen what holes he has this season, but who he has recruited and on the floor this season is an upgrade from last year. He recruits much differently than Weber. Weber seemed to target someone and didn't go after other options until one door closed.

If you were an I-fund contributor, you would know why Illinois isn't going to be grabbing a 2* any time soon.

Gustavus Adolphus · Sep 18, 2014

Honest question: where would you have put Groce on your list of candidates?

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Parade_Rain said:
If you were an I-fund contributor, you would know why Illinois isn't going to be grabbing a 2* any time soon.

WHAT IN THE HOLY HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! I never advocated that they go after 2*'s. I'm convinced you can't read.

Groce filled holes so well the team went from one basket away from the Sweet 16 to losing 10 of 11 in Big10 play!

You're not even responding on topic of what anyone is saying.

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Gustavus Adolphus said:
Honest question: where would you have put Groce on your list of candidates?

I can roughly tell you where Illinois had him. :smug:

Parade_Rain · Sep 18, 2014

FirstTimer said:
WHAT IN THE HOLY HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! I never advocated that they go after 2*'s. I'm convinced you can't read.

Ah. So that's not why you thanked a post regarding Illinois needing to sign a real diamond in the rough. Got it.

FirstTimer said:
Groce filled holes so well the team went from one basket away from the Sweet 16 to losing 10 of 11 in Big10 play!

And here I can say the same of your posts, Captain HerpDerp. One of those holes that got filled was denied a waiver and is on the roster this year. That player could have helped pull defenses away from the middle, helping Rice get to the hole. Look it up. The player's name is Starks.

FirstTimer said:
You're not even responding on topic of what anyone is saying.

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Parade_Rain said:
Ah. So that's not why you thanked a post regarding Illinois needing to sign a real diamond in the rough. Got it.

Again, I'm convinced you can't read:

Again, NOT THE POINT OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING. He wasn't saying it should be "routine" he's making a larger point about development of talent. Christ. He doesn't even frame it as a big issue because he directly calls it "little".

Parade_Rain said:
And here I can say the same of your posts, Captain HerpDerp. One of those holes that got filled was denied a waiver and is on the roster this year.

You can't say the hole is "filled" because we have no idea how this kid will play under Groce. He could tank correct? If that's even a possibility then the hole isn't proven to be "filled".

Parade_Rain · Sep 18, 2014

FirstTimer said:
Again, I'm convinced you can't read:

I read it just fine, Captain HerpDerp. The name was Kaminsky. The post JJ responded to mentioned diamond in the rough. Regarding your comment about talent development. Hello. NNanna comes to mind. Ray Rice comes to mind. For that matter Groce turned a dumpster fire into a team of believers who almost made it to the sweet sixteen.

FirstTimer said:
You can't say the hole is "filled" because we have no idea how this kid will play under Groce. He could tank correct? If that's even a possibility then the hole isn't proven to be "filled".

Starks is a transfer from a power conference. Perhaps you haven't heard of Oregon State. There is plenty of data available on his first 3 years in the NCAA. https://oregonstate.rivals.com/bviewplayer.asp?Player=433630 39.5% 3 point % is decent. That stretches the defense and allows Rice and Abrams to operate. Different team with a shooting threat, especially since Ekey went into a bit of a funk.

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Parade_Rain said:
The name was Kaminsky.

Kaminsky wasn't a 2*. In fact ESPN had him as a 4*. Jim Johnson didn't mention Kaminsky. Ever.

Parade_Rain said:
Ray Rice comes to mind.

LOL. How has Rice "developed" under Groce? What can Rice do under Groce he couldn't do before?

Parade_Rain said:
For that matter Groce turned a dumpster fire into a team of believers who almost made it to the sweet sixteen.

And last year he lost 8 straight Big10 games and 10 of 11.

Parade_Rain said:
Starks is a transfer from a power conference. Perhaps you haven't heard of Oregon State. There is plenty of data available on his first 3 years in the NCAA. https://oregonstate.rivals.com/bviewplayer.asp?Player=433630 39.5% 3 point % is decent. That stretches the defense and allows Rice and Abrams to operate. Different team with a shooting threat, especially since Ekey went into a bit of a funk.

That's great. I know who Starks is. I follow basketball. I'm an Illinois fan.

None of what you posted above addresses this:

He could tank correct? If that's even a possibility then the hole isn't proven to be "filled".

Parade_Rain · Sep 18, 2014

I'm placing you on the ignore list after this post.

FirstTimer said:
Kaminsky wasn't a 2*. In fact ESPN had him as a 4*. Jim Johnson didn't mention Kaminsky. Ever.

Yeah. I just pulled the name out of thin air, because JJ's response wasn't to a convo that mentioned the player and how he didn't fit Illinois' style. He was a 3* on Rivals, BTW. I'll take Rivals over ESPN ratings as being more reliable. Further, I didn't claim he was a 2*.

FirstTimer said:
LOL. How has Rice "developed" under Groce? What can Rice do under Groce he couldn't do before?

Cluelessness. Do you know how much weight Rice dropped in his transfer year he had to sit out and how much muscle he gained? You think a 6'4" 280 pound player (essentially a young, offensive lineman) is going to handle the B1G as well as 6'4" 235? There's no difference in what that player can do? That isn't development? Good gawd.

ST_Article said:
Since transferring from Drake after the 2011-12 season, Rice has lost 45 pounds and knocked 10 percent off his body-fat count, Illini coach John Groce said. Thanks to his dedicated effort, the 6-4 Rice, who is listed at 235 pounds, also has made a big leap in shooting percentage.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/coll...-in-good-shape-on-off-court.html#.VBsDk_ldXhI

FirstTimer said:
And last year he lost 8 straight Big10 games and 10 of 11.

Strawman.

FirstTimer said:
That's great. I know who Starks is. I follow basketball. I'm an Illinois fan.

Not believable

FirstTimer said:
None of what you posted above addresses this:

He could tank correct? If that's even a possibility then the hole isn't proven to be "filled".

Sure, but he has a 3 year track record in a power conference. It isn't likely.

FirstTimer · Sep 18, 2014

Parade_Rain said:
I just pulled the name out of thin air, because JJ's response wasn't to a convo that mentioned the player and how he didn't fit Illinois' style.

Actually you're confused. JJ made his thought THEN someone mentioned Kaminsky.

You're wrong. As usual.

Parade_Rain said:
Cluelessness. Do you know how much weight Rice dropped in his transfer year he had to sit out and how much muscle he gained? You think a 6'4" 280 pound player (essentially a young, offensive lineman) is going to handle the B1G as well as 6'4" 235?

Rice played at Drake at 240. Groce doesn't get credit for Rice getting fat on soul food then dropping back down to his Drake playing weight as "development". You're clueless. Rice didn't play at 280.

You're reading that article in Special person context. Go to Drake's website. They listed Rice at 240. He put on a ton of weight in his year off. Groce "developed" Rice back into the weight he was at Drake for the most part.

LOL at 280lbs

Parade_Rain said:
Strawman.

LOL. 1. You don't know what a strawman is. 2. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT A STRAWMAN IS. Me declaring a fact about the 2013-2014 Illinois basketball team in response to what the 2012-2013 team did is not a "strawman" it's an on topic (more) relevant response to the development or lack-thereof by the team.

Parade_Rain said:
Sure,

Ok thanks. Again my point is proven.

Parade_Rain · Sep 18, 2014

FirstTimer said:
Actually you're confused. JJ made his thought THEN someone mentioned Kaminsky.

HighJump31 said:

Kaminsky ...

Click to expand...

#347

JimJohnson said:

One thing that is a little annoying about Illinois...

Click to expand...

#348

LOL. After this, it makes the rest of your posting look silly. I will not be responding further.

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