The Myth of being contenders year after year for an extended period of time.

Chris J · Apr 29, 2013

Ok guys here is the deal:

Tom Ricketts is paying Theo and Jed tons of money to completely waste away a few seasons and never build a contender. They actually sit around and drink free beer every game and get totally trashed because they dont want to win. Theo is actually one of the dumbest executives in all of professional sports and it was someone else who built a consistent winner in Boston.

Kbisback is actually a mastermind of baseball but no one knows it. He has a perfect plan to rebuild an entire system while winning every single year. He wont reveal this plan because he simply does not have one and is talking out of his ass the entire time without doing research

patg006 · Apr 29, 2013

Martini said:
Again, complete delusion.

Theo walked into the Red Sox with pieces already there on the MLB level and still had to go and get Ortiz, Millar, and Schilling. The Red Sox minor league system was in shambles, with no first round pick the year before or the year he took over and still got Lester in the second round to go along with the only two clear prospects in their entire farm in Youk and Shoppach.

Creme

Funny how Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, David Murphy, and Freddy Sanchez get left out of your "Theo took over a Red Sox team with a minor league in SHAMBLES" argument.......

My guy Martini conveniently forgetting facts, again......

mountsalami · Apr 29, 2013

Chris J said:
Ok guys here is the deal:

Tom Ricketts is paying Theo and Jed tons of money to completely waste away a few seasons and never build a contender. They actually sit around and drink free beer every game and get totally trashed because they dont want to win. Theo is actually one of the dumbest executives in all of professional sports and it was someone else who built a consistent winner in Boston.

Kbisback is actually a mastermind of baseball but no one knows it. He has a perfect plan to rebuild an entire system while winning every single year. He wont reveal this plan because he simply does not have one and is talking out of his ass the entire time without doing research

Just when I thought there couldn't be a bigger Special person, another one tries outdoing the other.

Try hitting your head against the headboard a little harder next time RuPaul.

nwfisch · Apr 29, 2013

Chris J said:
Ok guys here is the deal:

Tom Ricketts is paying Theo and Jed tons of money to completely waste away a few seasons and never build a contender. They actually sit around and drink free beer every game and get totally trashed because they dont want to win. Theo is actually one of the dumbest executives in all of professional sports and it was someone else who built a consistent winner in Boston.

Kbisback is actually a mastermind of baseball but no one knows it. He has a perfect plan to rebuild an entire system while winning every single year. He wont reveal this plan because he simply does not have one and is talking out of his ass the entire time without doing research

And let's not go overboard and praise Theo for everything, and when he left, the team had a record collapse and was in shambles.

Like I said earlier, the 04 and 07 Red Sox teams didn't blow everyone out of the water and were backed up 3-0, and 3-1 in the ALCS those years.

KBisBack! · Apr 29, 2013

Martini said:
still got Lester in the second round

Jon Lester was drafted in the second round of the 2002 draft in June.

Theo took over as GM of the Red Sox in November of 2002, roughly 5 months after Lester was drafted.

Whoops

mountsalami · Apr 29, 2013

KBisBack! said:
Jon Lester was drafted in the second round of the 2002 draft in June.

Theo took over as GM of the Red Sox in November of 2002, roughly 5 months after Lester was drafted.

Whoops

You are a good person in trying to educate the board's drivelling idiot.

Jntg4 · Apr 29, 2013

nwfisch said:
And let's not go overboard and praise Theo for everything, and when he left, the team had a record collapse and was in shambles.

Like I said earlier, the 04 and 07 Red Sox teams didn't blow everyone out of the water and were backed up 3-0, and 3-1 in the ALCS those years.

You have ABSOLUTELY no point about them being down in series, it is meaningless as fuck.

nwfisch · Apr 29, 2013

Jntg4 said:
You have ABSOLUTELY no point about them being down in series, it is meaningless as fuck.

You can say its meaningless all you want, but you can't handle the facts about boy blunder. People act like command central in Boston was this unstoppable force that could do no wrong. I think there are plenty of valid questions that can be asked of them. I know, 2004 and 07 and stuffz.

SilenceS · Apr 29, 2013

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/04/epstein-on-cubs-rebuilding-plan.html

Theo on payroll! How different would this team look if Mark Cuban was the owner. Thanks Bud!

mountsalami · Apr 29, 2013

SilenceS said:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/04/epstein-on-cubs-rebuilding-plan.html

Theo on payroll! How different would this team look if Mark Cuban was the owner. Thanks Bud!

Good info Silence.

My bitch has been with what he has signed with his "budget". He should be fired.

JosMin · Apr 29, 2013

nwfisch said:
You can say its meaningless all you want, but you can't handle the facts about boy blunder. People act like command central in Boston was this unstoppable force that could do no wrong. I think there are plenty of valid questions that can be asked of them. I know, 2004 and 07 and stuffz.

What questions, Fisch? Like the fact that under Theo's watch, the Red Sox never won fewer than 86 games, made the postseason 6 times and won 2 World Series. They also drafted well (Daniel Bard, Jacoby Ellsbury, Clay Bucholz, David Murphy, Michael Bowden, Jed Lowrie, Dustin Pedroia and Justin Masterson and Jackie Bradley were all drafted in the first or second round under Episten's watch). In that case, if we're using the Yankees success as a barometer, I'd say they stack up fairly well.

Chris J · Apr 30, 2013

Theo also got Papelbon in the fourth round in 03. I think we can all agree thats a great find in the 4th round

Middlebrooks was a great pick in the 5th round in 07 and then Rizzo was picked tht year in the 6th round.

patg006 · Apr 30, 2013

Chris J said:
Theo also got Papelbon in the fourth round in 03. I think we can all agree thats a great find in the 4th round

Middlebrooks was a great pick in the 5th round in 07 and then Rizzo was picked tht year in the 6th round.

o.....k....

Not sure where you're going with this, I dont question Theo's ability to draft for success of this team minus passing on Appel because he didnt want to spend to get the best guy. By this statement; are you saying I should hold out for Ryan McNeil, Duane Underwood, or Anthony Prieto to become the next Roy Halladay or Andy Pettite just because Will Middlebrooks was a 5th round pick or Rizzo was a 6th round pick that's shown flashes of good fortune and already are annointed by cubs/theo lovers/red sox fans alike?

I simply pointed out how Martini conveniently left out a few names in the farm system Theo walked into Boston with; and how it was significantly stronger than he assumed and ran his mouth--errr.....keyboard......

still waiting on his response...though I feel I'll be stood up.

CSF77 · Apr 30, 2013

Good info Silence.

My bitch has been with what he has signed with his "budget". He should be fired.

Biggest need was 3B. They did not invest into Youk or trade for Olt or Groyko.

So status que. There were no quality mid tier 3B out there. In general 3B is looking weak league wise which drives up the value of the ones worth a damn.
As we saw the 2 best ones get tied up because of this lacking.

RF: This has performed better then expected from the left side. Hairston got his 2nd HR. Not much else to speak of with him.

Outside of that closer...too early to tell if Kuji is effective. Was injured. Feldman was pointless. Baker was a big 5.5 mil risk for coming off of injury. Spent too much for a dice roll.

Jackson is a league #4. Thing is he is getting paid current market value.

I'm waiting for the draft to judge year 2 on Theo.

I see him as the overseer of the team.

Jed is in charge of trades and picking trash off of the waver wire.

He has gotten lucky with Ranson and Greg so far. Rest is garbage picking.

Draft is run by Jason McLeod. He was the one that picked Bostons talent and built up the Pads system fast.

I trust him getting the job done right.

Main concern for me is the Ricketts. I believe they were the wrong choice in a ownership group.

They are running the team as a small market venue while increasing revenues and investing into new revenues.

But they are abusing the fact that Cub fans are very faithful and are expecting the fans to continue to accept losing while they continue to invest into new revenues vs spending on the product on the field. Which is why Cub fans go to the game.

Jntg4 · Apr 30, 2013

nwfisch said:
You can say its meaningless all you want, but you can't handle the facts about boy blunder. People act like command central in Boston was this unstoppable force that could do no wrong. I think there are plenty of valid questions that can be asked of them. I know, 2004 and 07 and stuffz.

It's not even about everything being right, it is about you being an idiot and constantly bringing up that they were down in series. It doesn't reflect how well the team was built by the front office at all, is a small ass fucking size, and they still won, didn't they? :smh: Fisch

KBisBack! · Apr 30, 2013

JosMin said:
They also drafted well (Daniel Bard, Jacoby Ellsbury, Clay Bucholz, David Murphy, Michael Bowden, Jed Lowrie, Dustin Pedroia and Justin Masterson and Jackie Bradley were all drafted in the first or second round under Episten's watch).

This is where I get frustrated with a clear double standard when it comes to Theo.

He gets praised for drafting well below average middle relievers like Daniel Bard and Michael Bowden while the same people will discredit the Cubs drafting of Sean Marshall who is far superior because he is a middle reliever.

Bucholz and Ellsbury are off to good starts this year and they have each had one excellent season apiece previously but also mixed in with some very mediocre seasons.

Pedroia has been great.

Masterson was flipped for a year and a half of Victor Martinez that resulted in a sweep at the hand of the Angels and then one of the biggest Sept collapses in history before Martinez signed with Detroit.

Jed Lowrie was given away to the Astros for an awful middle reliever.

David Murphy was traded to the Rangers for Eric Gagne. Ouch.

Bradley is still young but has been a disaster so far this year and is already back at AAA.

What you get out of the draft picks definitely includes the return on the players drafted and traded. What value does a good pick have for the team if that player gets traded for crap? And some of these draft picks were given away in some truly awful trades.

But as a whole, I think his results have been fairly overrated.

KBIB · Apr 30, 2013

patg006 said:
Funny how Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, David Murphy, and Freddy Sanchez get left out of your "Theo took over a Red Sox team with a minor league in SHAMBLES" argument.......

My guy Martini conveniently forgetting facts, again......

In 2002?
Hanley wasn't nothing but a hot shot prospect in rookie ball while Sanchez blew out his arm. Freddy Sanchez bottomed out in 03 and was nothing but trade fodder, hardly a top prospect. Murphy? Who? A mediocre talent who has had his statistics helped by playing in Texas? Again, wasn't considered a highly rated prospect in regards to Youk and Shoppach, both of whom played premium positions and were highly regarded from the onset.

What does this mean? The Red Sox system was ranked in the bottom 20 in 2002. Their best prospect was in A ball and wasn't considered a thought to call up for what, three years? Anibal Sanchez wasn't even in their top 10 prospects for 2002, neither was Murphy. Freddy was a 24 year old playing in double A ball blocked by Nomar and forced into accepting 2B as his position of need and still then, traded while his value was at his highest by Theo.

So again, what facts am I missing outside of a potential front line SS who is in an almost similar situation like a certain Cubs farm hands in Soler and Baez who are indeed developing in the minors at a steady rate? Surely this delusion that Theo had a stocked farm system was the question when stalwarts like Phil Dumatrait, Manny Delcarmen,
Billy Simon, Jorge de la Rosa, and Josh Thigpen were all in BBA's 2002 RS top ten, none of which did anything, correct? Not even mentioning that Ramirez, was considered the best prospect in the system and he wasn't gonna be near the majors for three more years.

Good try tho.

Creme

KBIB · Apr 30, 2013

KBisBack! said:
Jon Lester was drafted in the second round of the 2002 draft in June.

Theo took over as GM of the Red Sox in November of 2002, roughly 5 months after Lester was drafted.

Whoops

Um, who developed him?

Creme

KBIB · Apr 30, 2013

patg006 said:
I simply pointed out how Martini conveniently left out a few names in the farm system Theo walked into Boston with; and how it was significantly stronger than he assumed and ran his mouth--errr.....keyboard......

still waiting on his response...though I feel I'll be stood up.

Here is BBA's 2002 Red Sox Top ten list;

Boston Red Sox Top 10 Prospects
November 27, 2002

....Most of Boston’s farmhands with upside are concentrated in Class A or below, which means they’re a few years from helping and face a high attrition rate.

1. Hanley Ramirez, ss
2. Kelly Shoppach, c
3. Kevin Youkilis, 3b
4. Freddy Sanchez, ss/2b
5. Phil Dumatrait, lhp
6. Manny Delcarmen, rhp
7. Billy Simon, rhp
8. Jon Lester, lhp
9. Jorge de la Rosa, lhp
10. Josh Thigpen, rhp

What part of that list says "stocked"?

EDIT- Also from the BBA notebook in 2003;

"Let’s step inside the Red Sox top 10 that appears elsewhere in this issue to see how this process works. Boston isn’t the easiest organization to evaluate, because its system is fairly thin and many of its best prospects haven’t proven much beyond low Class A."

LOL WHUT?

Creme

FirstTimer · Apr 30, 2013

Martini said:
In 2002?
Hanley wasn't nothing but a hot shot prospect in rookie ball while Sanchez blew out his arm. Freddy Sanchez bottomed out in 03 and was nothing but trade fodder, hardly a top prospect. Murphy? Who? A mediocre talent who has had his statistics helped by playing in Texas? Again, wasn't considered a highly rated prospect in regards to Youk and Shoppach, both of whom played premium positions and were highly regarded from the onset.

What does this mean? The Red Sox system was ranked in the bottom 20 in 2002. Their best prospect was in A ball and wasn't considered a thought to call up for what, three years? Anibal Sanchez wasn't even in their top 10 prospects for 2002, neither was Murphy. Freddy was a 24 year old playing in double A ball blocked by Nomar and forced into accepting 2B as his position of need and still then, traded while his value was at his highest by Theo.

So again, what facts am I missing outside of a potential front line SS who is in an almost similar situation like a certain Cubs farm hands in Soler and Baez who are indeed developing in the minors at a steady rate? Surely this delusion that Theo had a stocked farm system was the question when stalwarts like Phil Dumatrait, Manny Delcarmen,
Billy Simon, Jorge de la Rosa, and Josh Thigpen were all in BBA's 2002 RS top ten, none of which did anything, correct? Not even mentioning that Ramirez, was considered the best prospect in the system and he wasn't gonna be near the majors for three more years.

Good try tho.

Creme

To support what you were saying.
Baseball America's Organizational Talent Ranks during the Theo era and heading into 2012 right after he left.

2003: 27
2004: 23
2005: 21
2006: 8
2007: 9
2008: 2
2009: 13
2010: 5
2011:17(The drop here can be pretty well attributed to the AGonz deal)
2012: 9

The Myth of being contenders year after year for an extended period of time.

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