The Myth of being contenders year after year for an extended period of time.

Status
Not open for further replies.

KBIB

Would like my account deleted
Joined:
Apr 26, 2013
Posts:
2,218
Liked Posts:
1,207
You tell me. I'm sure you've found ways of "limbering up" after your Geritol and tomato juice.

When you actually start to make sense, if possible, I can only assume that your device of communication has something to do with your ass.

Yes, because folding up the OP like it was an origami suddenly makes yours truly a multi talented person who could type with his prostate?

Like really? The evil lapse of one "taking it back to the chatroom" with a myriad of immature insults sure out weighs an honest opinion. I get that. I have read your post and quite honestly, found out that I surely wasn't in need of "trying too hard", and instead, offered a rebuttle to a post without even a shred of logical thought, and was trying to pin point how only a certain amount of teams, in a twenty year window, no less, seemed to always win while the beloved Cubs seem to just keep sucking the life out of their dedicated fanbase. Not even thinking, mind you, that the Cubs, right now, are in the process to actually fix what was wrong for what, over a century? And get past this hirrid history of being the proverbial laughing stock in all of baseball. Pointing out, in a gentlemanly, yet firm way, that whatever happened, even last year, has no bearing what so ever on the future.

Now, being a gentleman of leisure, and having the foresight to comprehend that the laws of entropy would even think of allowing your two distant remaining brain cells to crash together inside that low energy Nadron Collider you call an empty skull and produce a moment of creative insight, lets just try and keep the little childish remarks to the kids, mkay? They are dated, like the last time the Cubs actually played in the WS and almost as relevant as a championship run this year.

There is a bright side to what is going on. I suggest everybody get their Axl Rose on and get a little patience.


Creme
 

KBIB

Would like my account deleted
Joined:
Apr 26, 2013
Posts:
2,218
Liked Posts:
1,207
The logic that losing now for the sake of winning later is not at all a proven way to build a team?

Perhaps you could show us how that is indeed a proven way to build a team.

Go on.......


Ah, I see. Well you can take the blueprint of how the Royals, Nationals, and Pirates try and make the playoffs and I will take the blueprint of how the Yankees get to the playoffs year in and year out and we will see which one is better over time. This way, we don't have to use a snapshot of the past 20 years.

Dreme

First off, you don't have the talent to build around that the Yankees do.
Second, the Cubs already tried that route that the Yankees took and are still paying for it.
Third, the Yankees also spent a ton of money on drafting and scouting while buying proven talent in FA.

Now, call me somebody who sees that Theo is starting from the ground up, first building the farm system into something respectable, but the proof is right there that yes, there is progress made already in two short years.

Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is a major league ball club that is trying desperately to take itself seriously.


Creme
 

patg006

New member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
1,413
Liked Posts:
986
Location:
Chicago
Yes, because folding up the OP like it was an origami suddenly makes yours truly a multi talented person who could type with his prostate?

Like really? The evil lapse of one "taking it back to the chatroom" with a myriad of immature insults sure out weighs an honest opinion. I get that. I have read your post and quite honestly, found out that I surely wasn't in need of "trying too hard", and instead, offered a rebuttle to a post without even a shred of logical thought, and was trying to pin point how only a certain amount of teams, in a twenty year window, no less, seemed to always win while the beloved Cubs seem to just keep sucking the life out of their dedicated fanbase. Not even thinking, mind you, that the Cubs, right now, are in the process to actually fix what was wrong for what, over a century? And get past this hirrid history of being the proverbial laughing stock in all of baseball. Pointing out, in a gentlemanly, yet firm way, that whatever happened, even last year, has no bearing what so ever on the future.

Now, being a gentleman of leisure, and having the foresight to comprehend that the laws of entropy would even think of allowing your two distant remaining brain cells to crash together inside that low energy Nadron Collider you call an empty skull and produce a moment of creative insight, lets just try and keep the little childish remarks to the kids, mkay? They are dated, like the last time the Cubs actually played in the WS and almost as relevant as a championship run this year.

Ahhhhh yes. Another infallible calming force on his soapbox preaching taking the high road and cracked out the ol' Oxford Dictionary to come up with a few fancy words to insult someone on a message board. Or am I giving too much credit? Thesaurus.com?

There is a bright side to what is going on. I suggest everybody get their Axl Rose on and get a little patience.


Creme

Its been 105 years and teams coming into existence, and four teams in existence since 1960 have won a world series, and another 5 have been to one.

Excuse me while "patience" is in short supply, especially when my favorite team has the resources and blatantly refuses to use them to try and put a winning team out.

:enough:
 

KBisBack!

New member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
1,497
Liked Posts:
1,424
First off, you don't have the talent to build around that the Yankees do.

So the Yankees just showed up playing professional baseball loaded with talent and never went through any rough patches or had to rebuild on the fly?

Or did the Yankees go through a stretch from 1982 to 1994 without making the playoffs 9 out of 13 years?

Oh my bad, that didn't happen in the last five minutes so you can't remember that it happened.


Second, the Cubs already tried that route that the Yankees took and are still paying for it.

No they didn't.

They tried that route for maybe 2-3 years and abandoned it. You have to stick with it longer than that and have an extended period of losing before you can say it didn't work.

A big part of the reason they are 'paying for it now' is that they stopped paying the players and cut payroll by about $45M

details, details, details.


Third, the Yankees also spent a ton of money on drafting and scouting while buying proven talent in FA.

Which is exactly what several of us are saying the Cubs should do that you are arguing against.

Whoops.

Now, call me somebody who sees that Theo is starting from the ground up,

Call me someone who sees that Theo has never had to start from the ground up so I don't automatically assume he can do it like many of you have been brainwashed into believing.

first building the farm system into something respectable,

Made respectable in large part to the development of prospects drafted prior to his arrival.

but the proof is right there that yes, there is progress made already in two short years.

Really??? Where is this so called progress??

Because what has been in plain few for now the second season in a row is some of the absolute worst baseball in the history of a franchise legendary for bad baseball.

Another umbrella sold.
 

KBIB

Would like my account deleted
Joined:
Apr 26, 2013
Posts:
2,218
Liked Posts:
1,207
Ahhhhh yes. Another infallible calming force on his soapbox preaching taking the high road and cracked out the ol' Oxford Dictionary to come up with a few fancy words to insult someone on a message board. Or am I giving too much credit? Thesaurus.com?
Nah, just an educated mind that doesn't have to resort of desperation threads identifying the Cubs as some sort of secret organization that's trying to pull a fast one on a hapless team at the moments fan base when they have stated the second Theo got here, that they are gonna, as the kids say, flip the script, on everything that was done before with nothing but pure failure as the end result.

Now, unless you enjoy being placed in that most unique category of " worlds first handless slide whistle" with these type of responses, I would recommend just trying to prove a point without the immature/nerdiness. It makes you look better, considering I refuse to dummy down my replies so even you could understand them, and it also makes me look like a boss considering I reply to the low hanging fruit here.

Win/win is always good. Maybe it will rub off on the Cubs.


Its been 105 years and teams coming into existence, and four teams in existence since 1960 have won a world series, and another 5 have been to one.

Excuse me while "patience" is in short supply, especially when my favorite team has the resources and blatantly refuses to use them to try and put a winning team out.

:enough:
Where has Ricketts or Theo stated they "blatantly refuse" to put out a winning team when they have stated countless times they plan on a complete rebuild from the ground up?


Creme
 

patg006

New member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
1,413
Liked Posts:
986
Location:
Chicago
Where has Ricketts or Theo stated they "blatantly refuse" to put out a winning team when they have stated countless times they plan on a complete rebuild from the ground up?


Creme

For such an educated guy one would think you could spot bullshit when you heard/read it.......

No I guess not......
 

KBIB

Would like my account deleted
Joined:
Apr 26, 2013
Posts:
2,218
Liked Posts:
1,207
So the Yankees just showed up playing professional baseball loaded with talent and never went through any rough patches or had to rebuild on the fly?
LOL whut? Now you are trying too hard to find some sort of justification in your voiced opinion with that one.
Or did the Yankees go through a stretch from 1982 to 1994 without making the playoffs 9 out of 13 years?
But spent money, bad money, thru out. Similar to what the Cubs are finally getting cleansed of.
Oh my bad, that didn't happen in the last five minutes so you can't remember that it happened.
Straw man logic. The game has changed drastically in 20 years and even a lot in the past year. You are trying to pigeon hole a franchise that has, finally, owned up to all the mistakes and decided to come clean, admit that the old way was just that, and move forward with an educated mind instead of just throwing money at players who just don't project well. You should be thankful Ricketts has decided to put everything on the back burner and redo this thing the right way.



No they didn't.

They tried that route for maybe 2-3 years and abandoned it. You have to stick with it longer than that and have an extended period of losing before you can say it didn't work.
It didn't. I mean, look at this team right now. This is Hendrys legacy right there in front of you. Weak drafts and over reliance on Free Agency has crippled this team. You want them to spend money now and keep on pushing Hendrys failures that's on you. But Theo has done more with less in much less time then what Hendry had and its already bearing fruit. I mean, turning a farm system from completely bad into elite in the early levels just doesn't happen unless you have somebody who can actually identify talent.
A big part of the reason they are 'paying for it now' is that they stopped paying the players and cut payroll by about $45M

details, details, details.
So, instead of just killing the cycle, just keep it spinning?

Rollin,rollin,rollin



Which is exactly what several of us are saying the Cubs should do that you are arguing against.

Whoops.
And the Cubs aren't doing this now, when, again?


Call me someone who sees that Theo has never had to start from the ground up so I don't automatically assume he can do it like many of you have been brainwashed into believing.
Brain washed how? Buy seeing what was considered a horrible farm system just two years ago now is a top ten? By watching Theo be aggressive in actually getting Soler? By actually investing in his farm system and instead of rushing these talents letting them develop at their own pace?


Made respectable in large part to the development of prospects drafted prior to his arrival.
Baez? Vogelchunk?

http://www.baseballamerica.com/minors/2013-chicago-cubs-top-10-prospects-14527/

Most of those players in BBA's top ten were Theo guys, just sayin. Rizzo? Yeah buddy.


Really??? Where is this so called progress??

Because what has been in plain few for now the second season in a row is some of the absolute worst baseball in the history of a franchise legendary for bad baseball.

Another umbrella sold.

Click that link. Theres progress.


Creme
 

KBIB

Would like my account deleted
Joined:
Apr 26, 2013
Posts:
2,218
Liked Posts:
1,207
For such an educated guy one would think you could spot bullshit when you heard/read it.......

No I guess not......

Yes, because bitter fans on a message board surely mean more then the guys who actually hold the key to the trolley.


Creme
 

KBisBack!

New member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
1,497
Liked Posts:
1,424
But spent money, bad money, thru out. Similar to what the Cubs are finally getting cleansed of.

And that bad money has brought them 20 straight winning seasons and 6 World Series Championships.

Whoops.

Straw man logic. The game has changed drastically in 20 years and even a lot in the past year. You are trying to pigeon hole a franchise that has, finally, owned up to all the mistakes and decided to come clean, admit that the old way was just that, and move forward with an educated mind instead of just throwing money at players who just don't project well. You should be thankful Ricketts has decided to put everything on the back burner and redo this thing the right way.

Yeah, I am super thankful for 100 loss seasons and some of the worst baseball in the history of the franchise.

Lucky me.




This is Hendrys legacy right there in front of you. Weak drafts and over reliance on Free Agency has crippled this team. You want them to spend money now and keep on pushing Hendrys failures that's on you.

Bullshit.

That is just flat out ignorant talk right there.

Hendry's "failures"??

You mean the "failures" that brought about the most successful stretch for the franchise in the last century?

Wow, you really are just dumb.

But Theo has done more with less in much less time then what Hendry had and its already bearing fruit. I mean, turning a farm system from completely bad into elite in the early levels just doesn't happen unless you have somebody who can actually identify talent.

Elite???

Wow.

Brain washed how? Buy seeing what was considered a horrible farm system just two years ago now is a top ten? By watching Theo be aggressive in actually getting Soler? By actually investing in his farm system and instead of rushing these talents letting them develop at their own pace?

Brainwashed by praising Theo for being aggressive in getting a totally unproven prospect while out of the other side of your ass calling Hendry a failure for signing Soriano who only brought the Cubs three division titles.

Nah, no hypocrisy here at all.

Rizzo? Yeah buddy.

Fucking Rizzo?? Really?

The guy who can't hit his weight? Who has put up less than average numbers since the All Star Game last year?

The guy they got for giving away Cashner who has quietly been put into San Diego's rotation and pitching very well??


Click that link. Theres progress.

Check the standings. There's regression.

How can anyone be so stupid as to think that Baseball America's top 10 prospect rankings means more than the number of wins the major league team got??

You are an idiot.
 

Franko725

New member
Joined:
Feb 9, 2011
Posts:
1,034
Liked Posts:
719
Location:
Terre Haute, IN
Fucking Rizzo?? Really?

The guy who can't hit his weight? Who has put up less than average numbers since the All Star Game last year?

The guy they got for giving away Cashner who has quietly been put into San Diego's rotation and pitching very well??

Ah, Rizzo bashing at it's best. Just for comparison to your beloved Soriano, yes, Rizzo is batting only .200. However, he has hit 8 HR and drove in 18 RBI so far this year. 8 HR is more than any other Cub player has EVER hit in April. EVER! The Cubs as a whole this year have scored a total of 73 runs. So, Rizzo has produced just under 25% of this teams offensive output for the year. On the other hand, your high dollar free agent signing from the past that you love so much has 1 HR and 2 RBI. Sure, he is hitting at a .277 clip so far this year. To give you some perspective however, that is 1.5 hits per week more than a .200 average. Just to do the math for you, the difference between hitting .250 and .300 over the course of the season is 1 hit per week.

And comparing Rizzo to Cashner is just ridiculous. Cashner is a pitcher that while doing okay so far for the season has a history of injury. Rizzo is an everyday first baseman with power. Yes, he has gotten off to a slow start in terms of batting average for the season, but he has plenty of time to turn it around. I will take the everyday player over the pitcher with a history of arm/shoulder issues every day of the week.
 

dabynsky

Fringe Average Mod
Donator
Joined:
May 17, 2010
Posts:
13,947
Liked Posts:
3,118
Ah, Rizzo bashing at it's best. Just for comparison to your beloved Soriano, yes, Rizzo is batting only .200. However, he has hit 8 HR and drove in 18 RBI so far this year. 8 HR is more than any other Cub player has EVER hit in April. EVER! The Cubs as a whole this year have scored a total of 73 runs. So, Rizzo has produced just under 25% of this teams offensive output for the year. On the other hand, your high dollar free agent signing from the past that you love so much has 1 HR and 2 RBI. Sure, he is hitting at a .277 clip so far this year. To give you some perspective however, that is 1.5 hits per week more than a .200 average. Just to do the math for you, the difference between hitting .250 and .300 over the course of the season is 1 hit per week.

And comparing Rizzo to Cashner is just ridiculous. Cashner is a pitcher that while doing okay so far for the season has a history of injury. Rizzo is an everyday first baseman with power. Yes, he has gotten off to a slow start in terms of batting average for the season, but he has plenty of time to turn it around. I will take the everyday player over the pitcher with a history of arm/shoulder issues every day of the week.

No it is not. Soriano hit 10 in 2011. Rizzo has hit more than any left handed batter in April.
 

Franko725

New member
Joined:
Feb 9, 2011
Posts:
1,034
Liked Posts:
719
Location:
Terre Haute, IN
Sorry, left the lefty out. Definitely my error in typing. Suppose that error will be pointed out as part of my agenda...
 

Franko725

New member
Joined:
Feb 9, 2011
Posts:
1,034
Liked Posts:
719
Location:
Terre Haute, IN
Regardless of my previous error, those that want to call him out for his BA so far this year are not looking at the whole picture. What would this offense be without him? I would say pathetic, but it already is...so the term abysmal comes to mind.
 

CSF77

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
17,955
Liked Posts:
2,775
Location:
San Diego
It is really not about Rizzo for Cashner. It was not signing Fielder and then trading the teams best SP prospect out for a cheaper 1B alternative. I get that the Ricketts are soaking in the cash for the new park vs funding a winning team. But the team is worse now after the Ricketts lowered payroll.
 

KBisBack!

New member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
1,497
Liked Posts:
1,424
Regardless of my previous error, those that want to call him out for his BA so far this year are not looking at the whole picture.

You mean the whole picture like I pointed out how his numbers since the All Star Game last year are below average for a premier offensive position??


What would this offense be without him? I would say pathetic, but it already is...so the term abysmal comes to mind.

Being the 'best' offensive player on this team (which he isn't), still doesn't make him a quality player yet.

He has a LONG ways to go to prove he is a quality long term answer at the position. He needs to make drastic improvement on consistently making contact and if he doesn't major league pitchers will continue to exploit it.

To simply ignore his below average performance the second half of last year and his alarming strikeout rate so far this year is foolish.

His .764 OPS the second half of last year would rank 17th out of MLB 1B last year. Below average.

Fortunately he is hitting HR's this year or he would be completely useless offensively.

I will wait till he is a .300 hitter with 30 HR's before I jump on the Franchise 1B bandwagon.
 

KBisBack!

New member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
1,497
Liked Posts:
1,424
It is really not about Rizzo for Cashner. It was not signing Fielder and then trading the teams best SP prospect out for a cheaper 1B alternative. I get that the Ricketts are soaking in the cash for the new park vs funding a winning team. But the team is worse now after the Ricketts lowered payroll.

Exactly.

They could have a true franchise 1B in Fielder and a second power arm in the rotation with Shark.

Just think what a rotation of Shark, Garza, Cashner and Appel could be in a few years??

Add that to a lineup that has Fielder, Castro, Soler and Baez??

Now THAT would be something to get excited about.

Now? Not so much.
 

KBisBack!

New member
Joined:
Apr 16, 2013
Posts:
1,497
Liked Posts:
1,424
Kinda funny how the slurpers don't have any actual facts to dispute what is going on or the facts I have provided.

They are reduced to make ridiculous claims like 'the logic is faulty' because they know they don't have to provide any actual facts, which they know they can't.

Just weak.
 

chibears55

Well-known member
Joined:
Apr 18, 2013
Posts:
13,554
Liked Posts:
1,924
The goal stated is to build a team that will make the playoffs year-in and year-out, which probably won't happen. However, if we can be over .500 about 8 years out of ten and make the playoffs about four years out of ten, that would still be satisfying enough of a job, and then it will be up to the players to decide if there will be a championship thrown in there in four chances. Of course, it may not turn out that way, but I'd definitely call that consistent contending even if it doesn't meet the requirements you set in this thread.


the goal for theo and ted is to be an above .500 team for 10 yrs out of 10 and make the playoffs each year to be able to contend for a world championship..

what the yankees , braves, cardinals all had over the years is a solid minor league system from which they were able to use those players in trades and or bring them up when needed to help keep the momentum of winning going year after year, plus they were able to go out and get some of the top FAs not just because they had the money IE yankees but because most top players wanted to play for a team that consistently contend for a championship.

the cubs minor league system has not been the greatest over the years , yes they were able to use some to help get players to win and make POs a couple of times over a 10 yr span but as we saw after the 2007 and 2008 run they didnt have enough talent to replace certain players when needed and keep the winning flow going along with not helping them be a consistent above .500 / playoff team over a long period of time ( 10 yrs )

hendry was trying to do it by spending with limited talent in the minors and it got him 3 POs appearences in 10 yrs,
theo is trying to build up the minors first to have a strong core there for a long period over relying mostly on bringing in FAs and spending

so, yes the last 4 years sucks cause we saw what happens to a team that has a limited minor league system and high cost players at the end of the ropes lose 90 games for 2 years. and now were watching a team get gutted and built up from the bottom and on their way to losing 90 to 100 games for a 2nd yr in a row.
 

KBIB

Would like my account deleted
Joined:
Apr 26, 2013
Posts:
2,218
Liked Posts:
1,207
And that bad money has brought them 20 straight winning seasons and 6 World Series Championships.

Whoops.
And in a whole different environment then the Cubs? Trying to compare the Cubs to the Yankees is hilarious. Two different franchises from opposite sides of the spectrum with one of those franchises actually doing the right thing and start over. See, your problem is that you are just bitterly jealous, and if not, you read like you are. Its not your team, nor your money, and you, basically, have been reduced to wishful thinking on a message board. I get it. You want to see the Cubs win a WS before you keel over from obsessive compulsive disorder in reguards to where Ricketts money should be, iyo, going instead of admitting that, for the last century things just didn't go as planned even with Sammy Sosa and Kerry Wood. You have that losers mentality that when in doubt, spend money and hope it goes away when the Cubs have a history of just chosing the wrong types of players. News flash- It didn't work. Now, there are plenty of other teams out there that you could root for and I will go out on a limb and say with a certain confidence that nobody here or in that most dedicated Cub fanbase will miss you if even for a bit. But the sad truth to your breakfown here can be summed up in one word;

Cope.


Yeah, I am super thankful for 100 loss seasons and some of the worst baseball in the history of the franchise.

Lucky me.
Its not about you, so give your complete self- depreciation drivel a nap,sleepy. Your only voice is on a message board (chuckles). That obviously doesn't go too far, nor is Theo or Ricketts losing any sleep when they have a plan in mind and have so far stuck to it with the exception of wasting money on Jackson. You are just one of millions, and carry that huge definition of sheep with the whole vapid argument you try to walk out there that had its legs amputated decades ago. You are going thru the "I really am a powerless fan whose opinion doesn't really matter" phase. Theres a few more steps you will burden yourself thru and by the time you actually come to grips with the fact its not your money, the Cubs will start winning again and the evil cycle will start once more.





Bullshit.

That is just flat out ignorant talk right there.

Hendry's "failures"??

You mean the "failures" that brought about the most successful stretch for the franchise in the last century?

Wow, you really are just dumb.
What success? Where are the WS trophies? Wait, you mean baseless division titles? Really? Right there your ignorance is showing by being content with trivial finishes when the goal is to win a World Series. Jim Hendry gutted this team and put the waste right in the lap of Theo. That team on the field, the horrible farm system, the purest definition of spending money for the sake of spending, that's Hendry and the mentality that you have been programmed into accepting. Hendrys drafting put this franchise back a decade, then Wilkens put it back five more years. If I recall, Hendry used his system to make excellent trades for A-Ram and Clements, yet, Theo needs to spend money? Sorry, aint buying it or any of the blather you are trying to posture here. This team is in full rectal examination mode and paying for more shit just defeats the purpose of the colonic cleanse.

LOL at division titles......


Elite???

Wow.
Yes, elite. Baez is regarded as one of the top ten talents in all of baseball, Soler would have been a top five pick in last years draft, Almora was a top ten pick last year, three elite talents in the span of one year. Which is refreshing considering Baez surely would have been rushed if Hendry was still at the helm, just like CP,Pie,Wood,Choi,etc,etc. Throw in a top two pick this year and another high pick next year in the hands of evaluators who know how to draft, this redo isn't gonna take that long. I have patience. If you don't, try another team? Its not like the Red Sox, you know, the team Theo used to run, don't have a top five farm system with so many highly regarded prospects that they could trim the fat on bloated contracts and fill in the gaps with FA filler until those same kids work themselves into the majors, amirite?


Brainwashed by praising Theo for being aggressive in getting a totally unproven prospect while out of the other side of your ass calling Hendry a failure for signing Soriano who only brought the Cubs three division titles.

Nah, no hypocrisy here at all.
Division titles mean nothing. And Soriano was nothing but a complimentary player, and an over priced one at that, on those teams that went that far on account of their pitching. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise.


Fucking Rizzo?? Really?

The guy who can't hit his weight? Who has put up less than average numbers since the All Star Game last year?
The same guy who is leading this team in HR's and RBI's? Who is also has a better OPS then say...Soriano?
The guy they got for giving away Cashner who has quietly been put into San Diego's rotation and pitching very well??
Two starts? Who also has a history of being injured?



Check the standings. There's regression.

How can anyone be so stupid as to think that Baseball America's top 10 prospect rankings means more than the number of wins the major league team got??

You are an idiot.
When a teams in a rebuild, its better to look at those same futures then the actual team. Cant deal with it, then apologize to yourself for putting yourself thru it.


Thanks for trying, no really.


Creme
 

KBIB

Would like my account deleted
Joined:
Apr 26, 2013
Posts:
2,218
Liked Posts:
1,207
Kinda funny how the slurpers don't have any actual facts to dispute what is going on or the facts I have provided.

They are reduced to make ridiculous claims like 'the logic is faulty' because they know they don't have to provide any actual facts, which they know they can't.

Just weak.

Where are these facts that you speak of?



Creme
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top