No Surprise: Chicago Cubs Claim Daniel Bard Off Waivers

SilenceS · Sep 13, 2013

dabynsky said:
Right this is the part that needs to be mentioned more and more. The Cardinals are really fucking good at developing talent in the minors and the major league. There is a reason that the Cards have had the talent that they have had while spending less and drafting later than the Cubs consisting throughout the past decade. The other facet is how have the Cadinals maintained this without those three factors that you mentioned in this post. The answer was not long term deals to bring free agents to the Cardinals which has been the suggestion ad nasuem to speed up the process of improving the major league team here. The answer was smart short terms deals for need positions, shrewd trades and excellent internal player development. I like the chances of long term success of that approach than the strategy employed by the Los Angeles teams.

I don't disagree with what you said. But, those things are easier done when you have one of the greatest players of all time on your team. Pujols also played for way under the market value for the Cardinals in good faith. You can take your time and develop. The Cardinals also had superior coaching to the Cubs. Bosio and Sveum cant hold Duncan and LaRussa jock strap. My point was the Cardinals have made some bad signings. It didn't deter them from spending when they though it was right. I have no problem not paying big time FA if I don't think its the right fit. I have a problem when people think that signing any big FA is dumb. Its not. Not all of them flop. Also, I just think to many fans think all these minor leaguers will succeed when the odds are highly against it. Waiting for all of them is as big of suicide as signing a team of high dollar 30 year old players. Its both.

beckdawg · Sep 13, 2013

SilenceS said:
St. Louis Cardinals central division championships.

St. Louis Cardinals Central Division Titles
Year Record Manager
1996 88-74 Tony La Russa
2000 95-67 Tony La Russa
2002 97-65 Tony La Russa
2004 105-57 Tony La Russa
2005 100-62 Tony La Russa
2006 83-78 Tony La Russa
2009 91-71 Tony La Russa
2012 88-74 Mike Matheny

No team is only one player but to act like Pujols was not the main person in them winning. The Cardinals could have a 100 mid rounds picks that succeed and they will never produce and change games like Pujols. Put Pujols in his prime in the Cubs lineup today. It would make the whole lineup a ton better. Yes, they have had guys succeed but Pujols is the main reason they were who they were. He was the greatest hitter of the 2000's by a mile. His bWAR trumps hall of famers. You are being ridiculous and NAIVE on this subject. Im not even talking about the greatest pitching coach in history in Dave Duncan and one of the best coaches of all time in LaRussa. When the Cubs get them then talk until then it is useless. Like I said

I'll ask a simple question. If you put a Pujols in his prime on this cubs teams are they a 90 win team? If no, then I don't see what we're debating because my point still stands that Pujols isn't the only reason they won. His best season was an absurd 9.6 WAR. This cubs team is on pace for 69 wins. So, even if you ignore the fact you would have to replace a current player, that puts the cubs around 79 wins. Even if you suggest he improves the players around him that's 10 wins from being a the team the cards were roughly during his time there. So sure, his 7-8 WAR a year made the Cardinals an elite team but they still would have been a winning team without him.

More to the point, let's say there's a Pujols in his prime level FA out there. Him alone isn't enough to turn the cubs into a winner which is my entire point. Throwing all the cubs FA money at one player doesn't do enough to improve the team. If the cubs are an 80-85 win team and there's a guy out there that can provide a Pujols type impact then sure go get the guy. But, at this point, they are better off spending money on 2-3 players for smaller contracts and hope to replicate the WAR they could get out of one player because not only is it cheaper but it's substantially less risk. Also, they've already proven to be able to do that with guys like Schierholtz, Maholm and Feldman.

SilenceS · Sep 13, 2013

beckdawg said:
I'll ask a simple question. If you put a Pujols in his prime on this cubs teams are they a 90 win team? If no, then I don't see what we're debating because my point still stands that Pujols isn't the only reason they won. His best season was an absurd 9.6 WAR. This cubs team is on pace for 69 wins. So, even if you ignore the fact you would have to replace a current player, that puts the cubs around 79 wins. Even if you suggest he improves the players around him that's 10 wins from being a the team the cards were roughly during his time there. So sure, his 7-8 WAR a year made the Cardinals an elite team but they still would have been a winning team without him.

More to the point, let's say there's a Pujols in his prime level FA out there. Him alone isn't enough to turn the cubs into a winner which is my entire point. Throwing all the cubs FA money at one player doesn't do enough to improve the team. If the cubs are an 80-85 win team and there's a guy out there that can provide a Pujols type impact then sure go get the guy. But, at this point, they are better off spending money on 2-3 players for smaller contracts and hope to replicate the WAR they could get out of one player because not only is it cheaper but it's substantially less risk. Also, they've already proven to be able to do that with guys like Schierholtz, Maholm and Feldman.

You change the subject. Another thing do you know how war comes into play. Do you thing sitting pujols 3 with castro 2 and rizzo 4 would not greatly improve their stats? If no, then I feel like you are all about numbers ad don't watch. Sabers go so far and even the most in to sabers will tell you that. The cubs keep their team and add pujols you are looking at .500 team or better and that's not without spending huge money. I feel like you can not see much besides sabers. I know sabers but I know the eye test as well. The cubs will not do what you say because theo n them have a grasp on both. Just my opinion. You tried to downplay what an eigth round pick did for a team. If Bryant or Baez comes close to him then the cubs won't have a problem for ten years

beckdawg · Sep 13, 2013

SilenceS said:
You change the subject. Another thing do you know how war comes into play. Do you thing sitting pujols 3 with castro 2 and rizzo 4 would not greatly improve their stats? If no, then I feel like you are all about numbers ad don't watch. Sabers go so far and even the most in to sabers will tell you that. The cubs keep their team and add pujols you are looking at .500 team or better and that's not without spending huge money. I feel like you can not see much besides sabers. I know sabers but I know the eye test as well. The cubs will not do what you say because theo n them have a grasp on both. Just my opinion. You tried to downplay what an eigth round pick did for a team. If Bryant or Baez comes close to him then the cubs won't have a problem for ten years

Would having Castro, Pujols and Rizzo improve their stats? Probably but then the question is how much. Castro I don't particularly see much of an impact because of his horrid .280 OBP. It's not like Castro is sitting at .330 OBP and has had no one driving him in. The reason his stats are down is because he's not been on base. I don't see much of an argument to be made that Pujols will make Castro get on base more. As for Rizzo, I have no doubt his RBI total would be higher. But, again the bigger complaints about him are his batting average. I personally don't see it as a huge issue but it's unlikely Pujols takes him from a .230 hitter to a .270 hitter.

Additionally, you have to look at Rizzo and Castro's(and the rest of the team) impact on Pujols. If Castro is hitting 2 there's no way Pujols has 124 RBI's which he had his best war season. Baseball reference doesn't have the most used line ups but I'm guessing the Cards had Rentiria hitting lead off with Edmonds or Drew in the 2 hole. All three of those players had an OBP of .374 or higher compared to Castro's .280. If players aren't on base Pujols or some other FA aren't going to drive them in.

You say I'm change the subject. How? I've repeatedly said that it is pointless for the cubs to go after a high priced FA until they have more of a team around. That has and will be my point. The cards have almost always had players around. The cards that year had 2 players who had under .350 OBP(Bo Hart and Matheny). This year the cubs have two starters who had higher than a .330 OBP(Castillo and Valbuena). I don't care if you put Pujols in his prime on this year's team at best you're talking an 80-85 win team and that's adding easily the best player of his generation. So, to throw $20 mil/year at a guy who wont be that good is pointless.

Now, if they want sign someone like Tanaka that's different to me. He's what 25? They can eat a huge posting fee this year and then he will be reasonable for the following years likely in the $10 mil/year range Darvish got. But I see absolutely no point in signing someone like Elsbury(30) who's already at his peak because by the time the rest of the team is around him he will be past his prime. You'd be better off grabbing 2 $10/year guys who probably get 3-4 year deals instead.

Boobaby1 · Sep 14, 2013

beckdawg said:
Would having Castro, Pujols and Rizzo improve their stats? Probably but then the question is how much. Castro I don't particularly see much of an impact because of his horrid .280 OBP. It's not like Castro is sitting at .330 OBP and has had no one driving him in. The reason his stats are down is because he's not been on base. I don't see much of an argument to be made that Pujols will make Castro get on base more. As for Rizzo, I have no doubt his RBI total would be higher. But, again the bigger complaints about him are his batting average. I personally don't see it as a huge issue but it's unlikely Pujols takes him from a .230 hitter to a .270 hitter.

Additionally, you have to look at Rizzo and Castro's(and the rest of the team) impact on Pujols. If Castro is hitting 2 there's no way Pujols has 124 RBI's which he had his best war season. Baseball reference doesn't have the most used line ups but I'm guessing the Cards had Rentiria hitting lead off with Edmonds or Drew in the 2 hole. All three of those players had an OBP of .374 or higher compared to Castro's .280. If players aren't on base Pujols or some other FA aren't going to drive them in.

You say I'm change the subject. How? I've repeatedly said that it is pointless for the cubs to go after a high priced FA until they have more of a team around. That has and will be my point. The cards have almost always had players around. The cards that year had 2 players who had under .350 OBP(Bo Hart and Matheny). This year the cubs have two starters who had higher than a .330 OBP(Castillo and Valbuena). I don't care if you put Pujols in his prime on this year's team at best you're talking an 80-85 win team and that's adding easily the best player of his generation. So, to throw $20 mil/year at a guy who wont be that good is pointless.

Now, if they want sign someone like Tanaka that's different to me. He's what 25? They can eat a huge posting fee this year and then he will be reasonable for the following years likely in the $10 mil/year range Darvish got. But I see absolutely no point in signing someone like Elsbury(30) who's already at his peak because by the time the rest of the team is around him he will be past his prime. You'd be better off grabbing 2 $10/year guys who probably get 3-4 year deals instead.

It was always part of Tony LaRussa's formula to improve a batters average, OBP or whatever, to stick them in the 2-hole in front of Pujols. Yes, Pujols was that good that he basically forced pitchers to have to give the 2-hole hitter better pitches to see in fear of walking them in front of "Albert the Great".

Albert was a once in a lifetime find for any organization, and probably the greatest pure power hitter and hit for average player I have ever seen, and I have seen quite a few.

With Castro's impatience at the plate, I don't know by how much. Now if we are talking about Rizzo, then I think his numbers would be greatly enhanced.

dabynsky · Sep 14, 2013

SilenceS said:
You change the subject. Another thing do you know how war comes into play. Do you thing sitting pujols 3 with castro 2 and rizzo 4 would not greatly improve their stats? If no, then I feel like you are all about numbers ad don't watch. Sabers go so far and even the most in to sabers will tell you that. The cubs keep their team and add pujols you are looking at .500 team or better and that's not without spending huge money. I feel like you can not see much besides sabers. I know sabers but I know the eye test as well. The cubs will not do what you say because theo n them have a grasp on both. Just my opinion. You tried to downplay what an eigth round pick did for a team. If Bryant or Baez comes close to him then the cubs won't have a problem for ten years

No offense should be taken by this post, but I just imagined Dale Sveum reading this post out loud and saying cyber everytime you wrote saber. It was pretty damn funny. That is all.

beckdawg · Sep 14, 2013

Boobaby1 said:
With Castro's impatience at the plate, I don't know by how much. Now if we are talking about Rizzo, then I think his numbers would be greatly enhanced.

Depends on where you're sticking Rizzo. If it's after Pujols like Silence suggested I don't see his impact other than Pujols being on base for RBI ops. However, if you had something like Castro, Rizzo then Pujols I can see Pujols protecting Rizzo helping him out but then that comes at a cost of however much he'd help Castro.

SilenceS · Sep 14, 2013

beckdawg said:
Depends on where you're sticking Rizzo. If it's after Pujols like Silence suggested I don't see his impact other than Pujols being on base for RBI ops. However, if you had something like Castro, Rizzo then Pujols I can see Pujols protecting Rizzo helping him out but then that comes at a cost of however much he'd help Castro.

I meant if the Cubs kept the same team before trades then You have Castro, Pujols, Rizzo, and Soriano. The whole lineup dynamic is instantly changed. Like I said if Baez or Bryant become 3 quarters of the player Pujols was then the Cubs will be fine for the next 10 years. Also, Pujols signed a very team friendly contract for the Cardinals which allowed them to bring or keep the necessary parts to keep them always in it. Then, like I said the Cubs coaching is nowhere near what LaRussa and Duncan were. Its multiple things with the Cardinals franchise but Pujols being a 8th round pick and becoming the player he was made the franchise go. He was the cornerstone. He was the rock. He was the beast.