Fast forward 5 years

cool007

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sdeezy wrote:
Now that i think about it, it might take a while before he makes it.Looking at his competition

D. Harris
Mo Williams
D.Wade
Ray Allen
Joe Johnson
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Jameer Nelson
Vince Carter

Most of these guys will probably be on better teams than we will be, the other guys are either a mainstay in the All Star game or have popularity on their side. Unless he truly explodes, we might not see him in there for the next couple of years

I only see D.Harris/D.Wade/JJ/ as his competition.

Jameer had one of those seasons but he still is on par with Rose right now. If Rose improves, he is better. Same with Mo Will.

Carter is pretty much done now, if they didn't select him this year, then I just don't see him selected next year, it's not like he is getting any better (only worse).

Iverson was already worse than Rose and people saw it and will not vote next year, I can make a bet on it.

Ray Allen, I think this was his last year to make it.

I see D.Wade/D.Harris/D.Rose making it next year.
 

Hawkfanwillie07

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cool007 wrote:
sdeezy wrote:
Now that i think about it, it might take a while before he makes it.Looking at his competition

D. Harris
Mo Williams
D.Wade
Ray Allen
Joe Johnson
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Jameer Nelson
Vince Carter

Most of these guys will probably be on better teams than we will be, the other guys are either a mainstay in the All Star game or have popularity on their side. Unless he truly explodes, we might not see him in there for the next couple of years

I only see D.Harris/D.Wade/JJ/ as his competition.

Jameer had one of those seasons but he still is on par with Rose right now. If Rose improves, he is better. Same with Mo Will.

Carter is pretty much done now, if they didn't select him this year, then I just don't see him selected next year, it's not like he is getting any better (only worse).

Iverson was already worse than Rose and people saw it and will not vote next year, I can make a bet on it.

Ray Allen, I think this was his last year to make it.

I see D.Wade/D.Harris/D.Rose making it next year.

The problem is that it is a huge popularity contest. Arenas, Johnson, Iverson and Carter will always get votes because of their names. Rose is either going to have to start putting up amazing numbers or the Bulls will have to start being a 50 win team for Rose to pass these guys. I hate it, but because the casual fan determines it, he will have a hard time making it in.
 

Morten Jensen

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I have so many +1's to hand out, so I'll just give the responses a general +1. Good read.

Smackdown makes a very good point about the possible perception of Rose in the future. While I hope he won't be bashed as much as Gordon, I find it unlikely that the casual fan will change their view if Derrick does improve in certain areas.

It's hard to predict stats with Derrick, IMO. He's one of those guys who can score 4 in an easy win and be completely satisfied, while score 25 in a loss and writing it off completely. I do think he'll put up some consistent numbers, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they jumped once in a while. So I'll be the loser who doesn't come up with numbers on his own, and just jump on Doug's digits as they sounded more right to me.

Overall, I think his impact will be huge. Offensively, I believe he will be able to be the best scoring point guard in the league, and lead the break beautifully. He's shown improved passing skills over the past month, and when he learns where to deliver the ball, he'll be a wrecking crew for the next ten seasons. I do think his defense will come along nicely, as his physical tools are simply too good to ignore. He'll need work, but since he's mentioning this himself often in interviews, I think he'll make a huge effort in off-seasons.

As for All-Star games.. I think he makes it next year. Iverson is done, and people will acknowledge this next season. A hot start in november and december, and Derrick will be starting in february. More importantly, I think next year is going to see major improvements from him.

What's scary is the fact that we finally have a player who has the potential to be a legitimate MVP candidate in just a few years.
 

Bullsman24

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i think he will vastly improve his defense, def enough to not be known as a weak defender after it. he has all the physical skills, he just needs to get smarter on d
 

collisrost

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DASMACKDOWN wrote:
But right now, Rose has shown that he is bad on defense. This is something that will be hard for him from a Bulls fans perspective unless he just is a defensive animal next year.

For instance in Ben Gordon's case, he will probably always known as a bad defender. Even though since his rookie year, he has been an average defender. ie not great, not bad either, but is always called bad.

And in the NBA no matter how good you are defensively, you can and will still get burnt.

So what happens is, the moment that person gets burnt, people will revert back to saying, see he is bad defensively.

You're right, players tend to have reputations that are hard to break. A big reason for this is that the scouting reports from their rookie seasons go into the text that every announcer reads before the game. These don't change a whole lot over the years unless there's a major statistical change in the numbers. Defensively that's rare since defense is often just not measured in stats. So Ben Gordon will always be known as a bad defender.

But I think there's also the superstar factor at play here. Two things happen that makes people notice superstars' improvement on the defensive end. One is that they get more and more calls over time -- the refs don't want to make the guy foul out of every game so they let superstars get away with a lot more minor violations on the defensive end.

The other thing is that the prognosticators pay attention and watch superstars play. They might not notice gradual improvement in a borderline star player like Gordon simply because they aren't micoranalysing his game. They surely will notice any improvement ion a potantial superstar like Rose simply because they are paying attention, not just reading the scouting report. That's why players like Lebron get credit for improving their defense over time -- known as a bad defender early, now they are singing his praises defensively. The same will go for rose in a couple of years.
 

dougthonus

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The other thing is that the prognosticators pay attention and watch superstars play. They might not notice gradual improvement in a borderline star player like Gordon simply because they aren't micoranalysing his game. They surely will notice any improvement ion a potantial superstar like Rose simply because they are paying attention, not just reading the scouting report. That's why players like Lebron get credit for improving their defense over time -- known as a bad defender early, now they are singing his praises defensively. The same will go for rose in a couple of years.

I agree with, the superstar and the break out player are the only guys who ever have their scouting report changed. Announcers were discussing what a great defender Hinrich was all last season, and he had a pretty poor defensive season.

Announcers still discuss what a good defender Andres Nocioni is because he developed a reputation for taking charges and toughness, though he's basically an absolutely terrible man defender and a scheme buster as far as filling his responsibilities.
 

Morten Jensen

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I see 'Nocioni' made it through the swear filter.

My Jordan, he was terribly overrated by announcers. I honestly thought we had a deal in place with Toronto for him, when I heard their comments on him earlier in the year. They were talking about how tough he was, how good defender he was, how terrific a shooter he was, how gifted a ballhandler he was (!). It was a Nocioni love-fest.

But you won't hear me complain. We got John Salmons for his constantly-rotating-to-cover-inferior-players butt.
 

cool007

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dougthonus wrote:
The other thing is that the prognosticators pay attention and watch superstars play. They might not notice gradual improvement in a borderline star player like Gordon simply because they aren't micoranalysing his game. They surely will notice any improvement ion a potantial superstar like Rose simply because they are paying attention, not just reading the scouting report. That's why players like Lebron get credit for improving their defense over time -- known as a bad defender early, now they are singing his praises defensively. The same will go for rose in a couple of years.

I agree with, the superstar and the break out player are the only guys who ever have their scouting report changed. Announcers were discussing what a great defender Hinrich was all last season, and he had a pretty poor defensive season.

Announcers still discuss what a good defender Andres Nocioni is because he developed a reputation for taking charges and toughness, though he's basically an absolutely terrible man defender and a scheme buster as far as filling his responsibilities.

Good point. That's the thing about NBA and not only announcers/media but also casual fans from all teams that don't watch other teams.

They all get brainwashed. I still hear the same in our own Bulls Radio that how Gordon can't even guard a chair or he is at best a 6th man and blah blah blah. I am like WTF. He has played EXCELLENT in the starting lineup and is one of the top scorer in the NBA at SG position and you don't see ton of SGs racking up BIG time points on him - He does good enough job (or atleast avg from a SG position that any other 6'6" guard would have done), yet they still complain and just have stuck in their heads that he is a bad defender.

They will use like 1 or 2 games out of 60 to 80 games to point out how he was bad against this guy but fail to look at the other 90% of the games.

If I had a gun, I would have shot them right there and explained it later. :laugh:
 

collisrost

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Do you think the scouting report/reputation thing holds true for referees too? Do they tend to get into a habit of calling certain guys certain ways and then continue to do so year on year? because if that's the case then Rose is going to have to really earn the superstar calls.
 

dougthonus

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collisrost wrote:
Do you think the scouting report/reputation thing holds true for referees too? Do they tend to get into a habit of calling certain guys certain ways and then continue to do so year on year? because if that's the case then Rose is going to have to really earn the superstar calls.

It probably is to some extent. I think it's human nature, but the better you play the more calls you get. The more doubt is in the refs mind. "Michael Jordan missed, looked like there could have been some contact, must have been.. " type thing.
 

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