Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st round

JakeN7 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Playoffs just happen to start on my 21st birthday.... don't know how sober I will be watching this one.

I agree with the OP on most of that, I just hope Tyrus can keep focused on 'Shard because once he gets going out there he's going to be difficult to stop. Having Brad Miller to help out on Dwight is huge, and Salmons vs Hedo will be a great matchup. We should really benefit from that trade.

JakeN7 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

edit: double post

cool007 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

charity stripe wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

I'm with Cool on this 100% and have the same reasons as him. What Orlando does is feed Dwight making you double him and freeing up their shooters.

What you gotta do is what the Pistons do and there's a reason why Detroit always beat them. You make Howard do it all alone. You live with him scoring and put him to the line at every moment. Use Gray and Linton for there 12 fouls and don't give them the three

Click to expand...

Its not that simple. Sheed even in his lazy and old current state, is a very very good post defender. He has given Howard trouble his whole career. Even Kwame Brown is a better post defender than Miller and Noah. Noah is very weak both upper body and lower body and Howard just overpowers him. I think in all 4 games Noah was in foul trouble. Miller is not agile or quick enough to deal with Howards post moves. We will unfortunately see a lot of Aaron Gray in the series.

The Bulls have to make their push when Howard is resting to have a good chance.

Yes, it's not that simple and Sheed is a much better defender against Dwight than anyone we have but that is NOT the point.

What Pistons have been doing and what Knicks did the other night and what some other teams do to beat them is - NOT TO DOUBLE DWIGHT. Pretty much 90% of the teams make the same mistake - THIS IS WHAT ORLANDO WANTS YOU TO DO. This is why they go to Dwight as much as possible in the 1st qtr to get him going and have teams start doubling him and then use Dwight as a decoy and that sets up their perimeter shooting. There is a reason why they are one of the top teams in the 3pt attempts.

If Vinny and coaching staff can figure this out, and NOT DOUBLE Dwight every chance they get, and let him go one on one and be physical (even if our bigs in foul trouble), let him earn it - no easy dunks and layups, let him shoot over the top or make free throws.

If we do that, and control their 3pt ATTEMPTS and close in on them, I just don't see them winning the series against us.

Yes, Dwight will STILL get his 25 points 12-15 boards but I just don't think they can win the series if Hedo/Shard are getting 18ppg on 16+ fga each.

dougthonus · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

If Vinny and coaching staff can figure this out, and NOT DOUBLE Dwight every chance they get, and let him go one on one and be physical (even if our bigs in foul trouble), let him earn it - no easy dunks and layups, let him shoot over the top or make free throws.

This sounds good in theory, but if we don't give up easy dunks and aren't double teaming him, then we will be fouling him a lot, and there is a limited number of times you can do that before your bigs are all out of the game.

I think your philosophy, while sounding good, is not practical to implement. How do you make Howard work in single coverage against Miller who isn't near fast enough or Noah who isn't near strong enough? Simply put, you can't. He can dominate those guys without working hard. That's why you have to double him.

All you could do is foul him to make him shoot FTs, but if you do that every time then they just go to him on the first 10 possessions and now every bi gon the team is in foul trouble.

I think you need to mix up your coverages, front him sometimes, double him sometimes, play him one on one sometimes.

cool007 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

I agree somewhat Doug but there is a way to defend Dwight. Noah/Miller needs to be physical and atleast push him out of the paint or keep him out of the paint. Double from the weak side but ONLY when he puts the ball on the floor and don't double all the time - or send double from different places. There is a way to mix it up to confuse the team and then try fronting him but always have weakside help ready (Tyrus?).

Keep in mind, we just need to somehow - someway win 1 on the road. I have no doubt we can beat them at home (in UC) on all games.

Ralphb07 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dougthonus wrote:

If Vinny and coaching staff can figure this out, and NOT DOUBLE Dwight every chance they get, and let him go one on one and be physical (even if our bigs in foul trouble), let him earn it - no easy dunks and layups, let him shoot over the top or make free throws.

Click to expand...

This sounds good in theory, but if we don't give up easy dunks and aren't double teaming him, then we will be fouling him a lot, and there is a limited number of times you can do that before your bigs are all out of the game.

I think your philosophy, while sounding good, is not practical to implement. How do you make Howard work in single coverage against Miller who isn't near fast enough or Noah who isn't near strong enough? Simply put, you can't. He can dominate those guys without working hard. That's why you have to double him.

All you could do is foul him to make him shoot FTs, but if you do that every time then they just go to him on the first 10 possessions and now every bi gon the team is in foul trouble.

I think you need to mix up your coverages, front him sometimes, double him sometimes, play him one on one sometimes.

Gray and Linton have 12 fouls and they should be used against Howard to foul him. You bring those guys in to just straight foul him. With Miller and Noah I wouldn't make them foul and if Howard score he scores. I'd rather give up the two than the three when talking about Orlando

My thing is I don't see Howard being a good enough post player to carry his team all series if we take his shooters out of the game. Howard is a GREAT player but IMO is no Wade, Kobe or LBJ on the offensive side that can carry his team all by himself and like Cool said we're going for 1 game there.

I don't care what the game plan is as log as we stay with the shooters and use Gray and Linton fouls on him putting him to the line

Ralphb07 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

charity stripe wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

I'm with Cool on this 100% and have the same reasons as him. What Orlando does is feed Dwight making you double him and freeing up their shooters.

What you gotta do is what the Pistons do and there's a reason why Detroit always beat them. You make Howard do it all alone. You live with him scoring and put him to the line at every moment. Use Gray and Linton for there 12 fouls and don't give them the three

Click to expand...

Its not that simple. Sheed even in his lazy and old current state, is a very very good post defender. He has given Howard trouble his whole career. Even Kwame Brown is a better post defender than Miller and Noah. Noah is very weak both upper body and lower body and Howard just overpowers him. I think in all 4 games Noah was in foul trouble. Miller is not agile or quick enough to deal with Howards post moves. We will unfortunately see a lot of Aaron Gray in the series.

The Bulls have to make their push when Howard is resting to have a good chance.

Well David Lee is not a good defender and the Knicks just did the same game plan we're talking about and won

We're not going to stop Howard from getting 25 and 15 regardless if we double him or not but if we prevent Lewis and Hedo from having big games we can win

cool007 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Ralphb07 wrote:

charity stripe wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

I'm with Cool on this 100% and have the same reasons as him. What Orlando does is feed Dwight making you double him and freeing up their shooters.

What you gotta do is what the Pistons do and there's a reason why Detroit always beat them. You make Howard do it all alone. You live with him scoring and put him to the line at every moment. Use Gray and Linton for there 12 fouls and don't give them the three

Click to expand...

Its not that simple. Sheed even in his lazy and old current state, is a very very good post defender. He has given Howard trouble his whole career. Even Kwame Brown is a better post defender than Miller and Noah. Noah is very weak both upper body and lower body and Howard just overpowers him. I think in all 4 games Noah was in foul trouble. Miller is not agile or quick enough to deal with Howards post moves. We will unfortunately see a lot of Aaron Gray in the series.

The Bulls have to make their push when Howard is resting to have a good chance.

Click to expand...

Well David Lee is not a good defender and the Knicks just did the same game plan we're talking about and won

We're not going to stop Howard from getting 25 and 15 regardless if we double him or not but if we prevent Lewis and Hedo from having big games we can win

Thank you for following on what I have been saying. I thought I was all alone here

Anyways, just keep in mind that we just need to win 1 game there not the whole series on the road. I have enough confident in our fans/players to carry us to victories at home.

Also, like Ralph just said, if David Lee of all people can go 1-on-1 defending Dwight then I think we have enough players that can bother him. Miller and Noah are 2 differnt kind of personalities on defense and they can mix it up (fronting/bodying up/using fouls smartly). Plus, we can use Gray in the 2nd half to foul him if we have to.

The good thing is Dwight WILL NOT beat us alone. Even if he scores 30, I don't see him averaging more than 30 a game even if we have Gray covering him all game long. Dwight is just not that good of a scorer. He will get 25 but remember he is also not a good free throw shooter and in playoffs, with all the intensity and everything, I see him miss even more.

Just tire him out there, be physical is all I am saying. Make him earn everything - just don't give him layups and dunks.

dunkside.com · Apr 15, 2009

magic in 5
here's how it plays out:

bulls steal 1 game in orlando. maybe the 1st one, the bulls coming all high on adrenaline and the magic being in a little semi-slump recently

magic take next 4.

if the bulls don't take a game in orlando, considering how good the magic are on the road, it might be a sweep.

regardless, it's good experience for the bulls.

cool007 wrote:

Lewis vs Tyrus:

This is a KEY matchup IMO. If Tyrus can win this matchup and make Lewis' life miserable, that gives us a pretty good chance. However it can go other way if Tyrus is letting Lewis shoot 3pt bombs all-day - this is when Timmy might be good.

vdn will have tyrus roaming to help in the paint, leaving rashard open all night long.
remember the game against the raptors not so long ago when bargnani torched the bulls ? it's gonna be deja vu all over again.

the_future420 · Apr 15, 2009

I agree with everybody that is saying we need to play Howard straight up. Between Noah, Miller, Gray and Johnson, we have 24 fouls to use on Howard. We don't foul him everytime he touches it though. We play him straight up, and force him to beat us with post moves and hook shots/jumpers. The times when he catches the ball too deep in the paint and it will be an obvious dunk are the times we foul. Even if the bigs get into some foul trouble, it won't hurt as much as it would against another team because the Magic don't have a ton of slashers who are going to take it to the cup against us. They are a jump shooting team.

This strategy takes away their main goal, getting wide open 3 pt looks created off of Howard double-teams. I know the cliche is that you don't let the other teams best player beat you, but Howard while a great player, is no Jordan. Their team is predicated on the "role players" (Hedo,Lewis,Alston) beating you. Screw that. Make Howard beat us. Make him exert all of his energy battling (okay he really wont be battling) for post position and trying to score one-on-one and then lets attack him on D as well by penetrating relentlessly at him. WE CAN WIN THIS SERIES. :cheer:

dougthonus · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

cool007 wrote:

I agree somewhat Doug but there is a way to defend Dwight. Noah/Miller needs to be physical and atleast push him out of the paint or keep him out of the paint. Double from the weak side but ONLY when he puts the ball on the floor and don't double all the time - or send double from different places. There is a way to mix it up to confuse the team and then try fronting him but always have weakside help ready (Tyrus?).

Keep in mind, we just need to somehow - someway win 1 on the road. I have no doubt we can beat them at home (in UC) on all games.

These guys aren't strong enough to keep him out of the paint, nor is Miller fast enough. Simply put, the idea of putting one of those guys on him in single coverage and expecting them to make him "work hard" is ridiculous.

That's the reason why everyone doubles him, is because one man isn't enough to make him work hard. If one man could make him work hard, then you wouldn't need to double him.

dougthonus · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Gray and Linton have 12 fouls and they should be used against Howard to foul him. You bring those guys in to just straight foul him. With Miller and Noah I wouldn't make them foul and if Howard score he scores. I'd rather give up the two than the three when talking about Orlando

My thing is I don't see Howard being a good enough post player to carry his team all series if we take his shooters out of the game. Howard is a GREAT player but IMO is no Wade, Kobe or LBJ on the offensive side that can carry his team all by himself and like Cool said we're going for 1 game there.

I don't care what the game plan is as log as we stay with the shooters and use Gray and Linton fouls on him putting him to the line

I think if you try having Linton Johnson fouling him that you will just be getting a parade of and1s.

cool007 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

That's fine Doug. I know Dwight will get his and we can let him score 25 or 30 a game but as long as he gets them on 1-on-1's then I have no problem with it. I just don't want them getting too many 3's.

The key is to stop their 3pt barage and we can win.

Besides, they are not smart enough to go to Dwight as much as we think they should.

dougthonus · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

cool007 wrote:

That's fine Doug. I know Dwight will get his and we can let him score 25 or 30 a game but as long as he gets them on 1-on-1's then I have no problem with it. I just don't want them getting too many 3's.

The key is to stop their 3pt barage and we can win.

Besides, they are not smart enough to go to Dwight as much as we think they should.

So if they go to Dwight 10 straight plays and score on 8 of them then that's okay with you? You don't think we'd need to change?

Odds are we'll score on 5 of our 10 plays in between.

Wade Wilson · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dougthonus wrote:
So if they go to Dwight 10 straight plays and score on 8 of them then that's okay with you? You don't think we'd need to change?

Odds are we'll score on 5 of our 10 plays in between.

I think you're exaggerating just a little. The Magic don't milk Dwight that hard; he's scored 40+ once this season and he's gone for 30 or more only one time since January. Obviously though, if he's going that hard then you've gotta double, but initially I'd like to try single covering him and letting him get his while staying at home with the shooters. That is how we and other teams beat the Shaq/Penny Magic; by conceding that those two would get theirs and locking down the three point shooters.

dougthonus · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

I think you're exaggerating just a little. The Magic don't milk Dwight that hard; he's scored 40+ once this season and he's gone for 30 or more only one time since January. Obviously though, if he's going that hard then you've gotta double, but initially I'd like to try single covering him and letting him get his while staying at home with the shooters. That is how we and other teams beat the Shaq/Penny Magic; by conceding that those two would get theirs and locking down the three point shooters.

I'm all for the idea of leaving Howard one on one. I'm just saying if he starts beating the crap out of you then you have to adjust. I don't watch a whole lot of magic games, so I have no idea if teams normally leave him one on one in the post with guys who have no hope to guard him and then what the Magic would do if that happens.

I mean if we leave him one on one with Noah, Miller, Gray, and they don't feed him then of course we should continue to do that. I'm just saying if they hit him over and over and over again and we're just fouling or he's scoring then you have to adjust.

dougthonus · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

This idea reminds me of the theory that when Jordan was playing you shouldn't double team him and let him get his.

Well if you did that for any length of time then you'd be giving up a basket basically every time down the floor.

This theory has been espoused as a way to defend every superstar in the league, but it's only effective if you can do a somewhat credible job on that superstar with your one on one guy. If you allow that superstar to shoot 70% then you're probably going to get killed doing this.

More times than not, the superstar will shoot an extraordinarily high percentage when guarded one on one because there is a reason they are a superstar, and it's because one guy can't guard them.

Wade Wilson · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dougthonus wrote:

I think you're exaggerating just a little. The Magic don't milk Dwight that hard; he's scored 40+ once this season and he's gone for 30 or more only one time since January. Obviously though, if he's going that hard then you've gotta double, but initially I'd like to try single covering him and letting him get his while staying at home with the shooters. That is how we and other teams beat the Shaq/Penny Magic; by conceding that those two would get theirs and locking down the three point shooters.

Click to expand...

I'm all for the idea of leaving Howard one on one. I'm just saying if he starts beating the crap out of you then you have to adjust. I don't watch a whole lot of magic games, so I have no idea if teams normally leave him one on one in the post with guys who have no hope to guard him and then what the Magic would do if that happens.

I mean if we leave him one on one with Noah, Miller, Gray, and they don't feed him then of course we should continue to do that. I'm just saying if they hit him over and over and over again and we're just fouling or he's scoring then you have to adjust.

Then we completely agree :lol:

Ralphb07 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

cool007 wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

charity stripe wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

I'm with Cool on this 100% and have the same reasons as him. What Orlando does is feed Dwight making you double him and freeing up their shooters.

What you gotta do is what the Pistons do and there's a reason why Detroit always beat them. You make Howard do it all alone. You live with him scoring and put him to the line at every moment. Use Gray and Linton for there 12 fouls and don't give them the three

Click to expand...

Its not that simple. Sheed even in his lazy and old current state, is a very very good post defender. He has given Howard trouble his whole career. Even Kwame Brown is a better post defender than Miller and Noah. Noah is very weak both upper body and lower body and Howard just overpowers him. I think in all 4 games Noah was in foul trouble. Miller is not agile or quick enough to deal with Howards post moves. We will unfortunately see a lot of Aaron Gray in the series.

The Bulls have to make their push when Howard is resting to have a good chance.

Click to expand...

Well David Lee is not a good defender and the Knicks just did the same game plan we're talking about and won

We're not going to stop Howard from getting 25 and 15 regardless if we double him or not but if we prevent Lewis and Hedo from having big games we can win

Click to expand...

Thank you for following on what I have been saying. I thought I was all alone here

Anyways, just keep in mind that we just need to win 1 game there not the whole series on the road. I have enough confident in our fans/players to carry us to victories at home.

Also, like Ralph just said, if David Lee of all people can go 1-on-1 defending Dwight then I think we have enough players that can bother him. Miller and Noah are 2 differnt kind of personalities on defense and they can mix it up (fronting/bodying up/using fouls smartly). Plus, we can use Gray in the 2nd half to foul him if we have to.

The good thing is Dwight WILL NOT beat us alone. Even if he scores 30, I don't see him averaging more than 30 a game even if we have Gray covering him all game long. Dwight is just not that good of a scorer. He will get 25 but remember he is also not a good free throw shooter and in playoffs, with all the intensity and everything, I see him miss even more.

Just tire him out there, be physical is all I am saying. Make him earn everything - just don't give him layups and dunks.

You're not alone

Ralphb07 · Apr 15, 2009

Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dougthonus wrote:

I think you're exaggerating just a little. The Magic don't milk Dwight that hard; he's scored 40+ once this season and he's gone for 30 or more only one time since January. Obviously though, if he's going that hard then you've gotta double, but initially I'd like to try single covering him and letting him get his while staying at home with the shooters. That is how we and other teams beat the Shaq/Penny Magic; by conceding that those two would get theirs and locking down the three point shooters.

Click to expand...

I'm all for the idea of leaving Howard one on one. I'm just saying if he starts beating the crap out of you then you have to adjust. I don't watch a whole lot of magic games, so I have no idea if teams normally leave him one on one in the post with guys who have no hope to guard him and then what the Magic would do if that happens.

I mean if we leave him one on one with Noah, Miller, Gray, and they don't feed him then of course we should continue to do that. I'm just saying if they hit him over and over and over again and we're just fouling or he's scoring then you have to adjust.

Your thinking is what Orlando wants. I get to see a lot of Magic games living here and they want you double Howard because it opens up Lewis and Hedo.

Howard is a great player but he is no Malone, Barkley or Duncan on the offensive side of the ball yet.

Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st round

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