Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st round

Ralphb07

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dougthonus wrote:
This idea reminds me of the theory that when Jordan was playing you shouldn't double team him and let him get his.

Well if you did that for any length of time then you'd be giving up a basket basically every time down the floor.

This theory has been espoused as a way to defend every superstar in the league, but it's only effective if you can do a somewhat credible job on that superstar with your one on one guy. If you allow that superstar to shoot 70% then you're probably going to get killed doing this.

More times than not, the superstar will shoot an extraordinarily high percentage when guarded one on one because there is a reason they are a superstar, and it's because one guy can't guard them.
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The difference is Jordan is a GREAT offensive player and Howard is not.

This theory will not work with MJ, Wade and Kobe because there creators. That's not Howard
 
dougthonus

dougthonus

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Maybe.

If it's as easy to shut down Howard as you say, then I would think the Magic would have a heck of a lot less wins.
 
dougthonus

dougthonus

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Your thinking is what Orlando wants. I get to see a lot of Magic games living here and they want you double Howard because it opens up Lewis and Hedo.

Howard is a great player but he is no Malone, Barkley or Duncan on the offensive side of the ball yet.
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I'm fine with starting out single teaming Howard, and I would continue that for as long as I could get away with it.

So I ask you the same question, if we single team Howard and in their first 10 possessions down the floor they get 16 points out of them while we get 10 out of ours, and Howard's already drawn three fouls on his defenders, do you stick with this plan?

If you do, and the next 10 possessions go the same way, do you stick with this plan?

I'm not saying the idea is conceptually bad. I'm saying it will be difficult to do successfully, and we need to be prepared to make adjustments when it clearly isn't going our way, and there's a good chance it won't.

Don't read my post as "we need to double Howard all the time", because I'm not saying anything remotely like that. I'm just saying that you need to be prepared to play superstars by giving them a variety of looks, and there's a good chance if you go with the "single coverage" look all game that you will get killed.

Howard isn't a superstar offensively, but he's big enough, fast enough, and strong enough to dominate the crap out of anyone we have to guard him. If we refused to double team all game long, we'd turn him into a superstar offensively.
 

TheStig

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dougthonus wrote:
Your thinking is what Orlando wants. I get to see a lot of Magic games living here and they want you double Howard because it opens up Lewis and Hedo.

Howard is a great player but he is no Malone, Barkley or Duncan on the offensive side of the ball yet.
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I'm fine with starting out single teaming Howard, and I would continue that for as long as I could get away with it.

So I ask you the same question, if we single team Howard and in their first 10 possessions down the floor they get 16 points out of them while we get 10 out of ours, and Howard's already drawn three fouls on his defenders, do you stick with this plan?

If you do, and the next 10 possessions go the same way, do you stick with this plan?

I'm not saying the idea is conceptually bad. I'm saying it will be difficult to do successfully, and we need to be prepared to make adjustments when it clearly isn't going our way, and there's a good chance it won't.

Don't read my post as "we need to double Howard all the time", because I'm not saying anything remotely like that. I'm just saying that you need to be prepared to play superstars by giving them a variety of looks, and there's a good chance if you go with the "single coverage" look all game that you will get killed.

Howard isn't a superstar offensively, but he's big enough, fast enough, and strong enough to dominate the crap out of anyone we have to guard him. If we refused to double team all game long, we'd turn him into a superstar offensively.
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I'd also like to point out that we can still double a little. Alston can't shoot or finish, he is more of a creator, we need to force him to be a scorer. Send Rose to disrupt Howard and don't rotate anyone over to Alston, make him beat you. We expose why they really miss nelson.
 

Ralphb07

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dougthonus wrote:
Maybe.

If it's as easy to shut down Howard as you say, then I would think the Magic would have a heck of a lot less wins.
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No one is saying it's easy but that's how you can beat them. Looking @ a team that's had success against the Magic and seeing how they do it and that what the Pistons do.

Maybe it doesn't work but that's the best game plan to beat them
 

Ralphb07

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So I ask you the same question, if we single team Howard and in their first 10 possessions down the floor they get 16 points out of them while we get 10 out of ours, and Howard's already drawn three fouls on his defenders, do you stick with this plan?
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The problem with this question is your soley basing it at the best scenario. Why can't we drain 2 threes and make it 12 points for us or 3 threes? You get my drift.

Also in these 16 pts did he go to the line at all or are all 16 from baskets? The reason I ask if it there not 8 baskets and he got fouled him being a 59% ft shooter he won't have 16 points

To reverse your question what if Howard scores on the first 5 baskets and we double allowing the other 3 baskets to be three pointers making them scoring on these same 8 of 10 like you say but the game is now 19-10 instead of 16-10

all cool and I are saying is watching Orlando the past 3 years is that they rely on the three point shooting and getting those guys open looks and don't wanna milk Howard all game. Detroit forces Howard to beat them and from some reason he doesn't.

Also we can mix it up and do it when Hedo or Lewis are out. If you have Battite in then bring someone over but when Orlando has Hedo and Lewis it I wouldn't do it
 
dougthonus

dougthonus

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Ralphb07 wrote:
The problem with this question is your soley basing it at the best scenario. Why can't we drain 2 threes and make it 12 points for us or 3 threes? You get my drift.rate.

Also in these 16 pts did he go to the line at all or are all 16 from baskets? The reason I ask if it there not 8 baskets and he got fouled him being a 59% ft shooter he won't have 16 points
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I think you are missing the point. My point is, I'm on board with starting out with your plan. I am proposing the situation where your plan proves to be a colossal failure which I think we would both agree is a possibility (not a certainty, but it's possible that Howard could crush us in this scneario). If that's the case, do you stick with it or do you change?

To reverse your question what if Howard scores on the first 5 baskets and we double allowing the other 3 baskets to be three pointers making them scoring on these same 8 of 10 like you say but the game is now 19-10 instead of 16-10
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Historically, allowing teams to try and beat you with the three is more successful than allowing teams to beat you at the rim. Teams that rely on shooting typically aren't as good as teams that rely on finishing at the basket.

all cool and I are saying is watching Orlando the past 3 years is that they rely on the three point shooting and getting those guys open looks and don't wanna milk Howard all game. Detroit forces Howard to beat them and from some reason he doesn't.

Also we can mix it up and do it when Hedo or Lewis are out. If you have Battite in then bring someone over but when Orlando has Hedo and Lewis it I wouldn't do it
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I'm not disagreeing with your premise. I'm just saying we need to remain flexible, and that there isn't one way you can always play. I would never put an automatic on double. I would always try and start with single coverage maybe zoning someone near them as a hedge and then ramp up defensive attention as they prove to me that I have to.
 
cool007

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

The thing is Doug that you are just assuming that if we go straight up with Dwight, he might score 8 of the 10 possessions but wake me up when Orlando actually goes to Dwight for 8-10 possesions in a qtr.

They just don't. He might get like 4-5 times in a row but then Magic won't even look for him until like mid 2nd qtr or so. Did you see how many FGA dwight attempts? Not many but check out their 3pt attempts - and they are one of the top in attempts and make.

They WANT you to double coz that is the only way they can beat you - since it would free up shooting for their even scrubs.

Like I said, I don't mind mixing it up but let him score 4-5 in a row before we start doubling. Even then I want double from different places (preferably from the opposite end) where they swing the ball - and by the time it gets there, we recover.

I also would like Noah to front him and have weak side help in Tyrus.

I still think even if they go to Dwight 8-10 times in a qtr/half, if he scores at will, ONLY THEN you double. If he is scoring like every other possession, then mix it up a little or leave it alone.

Let him get his, just concetrate on Hedo + Shard mainly.

Shaq was MUCH MORE dominant and MUCH BETTER passer than Dwight, yet he still needed Penny/Kobe/Wade coz Centers alone will not win you games - you need great 4th qtr players - which Orlando just doesn't have.

If you say Hedo, NOT EVEN CLOSE. He is not the same this year.
 

dunkside.com

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

You guys talk like Hedo was invisible or something. Howard is not the only one that can draw double teams.

I know he hasn't been playing like last season, but he's 6'10 at SF. If needed he can post-up Salmons with Rashard and the guards spreading the floor. If you don't double him, you're in trouble. You can't double off a 3p shooter, and if you double off Howard, Hedo can just hit him for an easy dunk.

I think you guys are worrying too much and you got your hopes too high. Stan Van Gundy is gonna take Vinnie to school. Realistically the Bulls have no chance at all and if they pull it off it would probably be a bigger upset than when the Warriors took out the Mavs (at least for me it would be bigger cause the Magic are not a soft team like Dallas was)

The way I see it, any playoff game by the Bulls is a win in terms of experience for Rose, Tyrus and Noah. This team is not ready to win now. Now with this roster, and certainly not with this coach.
 

Bullsman24

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

i think the bulls can def win if they really want to.

rose>alston:
derrick rose will explode if he's guarded by alston. he's not a great defender, all he's got is quickness, which rose can match. expect rose to start getting foul calls with dwight trying to block every shot. dwight's been in foul trouble in a lot of the games we've played.

gordon>lee:
lee is a good defender, but gordon's got too many skills for lee to be able to cover him completely. plus lee will have to double team rose to make up for alston at some points.

salmons>hedo right now:
salmons can do more, and 6'10' also means he gets slowed by his size, meaning salmons can get good mid range shots. plus, hedo doesn't rebound at all for a 6'10' guy.

tyrus<lewis:
but tyrus might be able to play alright defense on him because of his quickness and athleticism. tyrus will also be key on offense: if he goes in the lane and gets fouled, dwight could be out early.

dwight>any C in the league, much less our team:
our only chance on dwight is to get him into foul trouble with rose and tyrus, which realistically could work.

our bench>magic bench:
they have pietrus, gortat, and redick. kirk is better than either of their starting guards, and should dominate their bench. brad miller is a starter on almost every other team. the only problem with miller is he doesn't draw fouls, but jump shoots. tim thomas is a poor man's noche, so lets hope for some threes.

overall, i think we either win it in 6 or lose it in 7, so let's hope for the best, and hope VDN doesn't mess it up. there's barely anything he can really do wrong to ruin it for us though.
 

TheStig

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

dunkside.com wrote:
You guys talk like Hedo was invisible or something. Howard is not the only one that can draw double teams.

I know he hasn't been playing like last season, but he's 6'10 at SF. If needed he can post-up Salmons with Rashard and the guards spreading the floor. If you don't double him, you're in trouble. You can't double off a 3p shooter, and if you double off Howard, Hedo can just hit him for an easy dunk.

I think you guys are worrying too much and you got your hopes too high. Stan Van Gundy is gonna take Vinnie to school. Realistically the Bulls have no chance at all and if they pull it off it would probably be a bigger upset than when the Warriors took out the Mavs (at least for me it would be bigger cause the Magic are not a soft team like Dallas was)

The way I see it, any playoff game by the Bulls is a win in terms of experience for Rose, Tyrus and Noah. This team is not ready to win now. Now with this roster, and certainly not with this coach.
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Why can't you double off Alston, he can't shoot well at all. Thats why they have been worse since they lost Nelson. Let Alston beat you, send Rose to double anyone and don't rotate over. Rafer Alston is not going to carry you, he wants to pass and not shoot.
 

dunkside.com

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

true that alston is not as good a shooter as nelson, but he's gonna make them if he's wide open. he's a career 35% 3p shooter, which is decent. i agree that is better to make alston beat you than howard or hedo, but, again, overall as a team the bulls are miles away from the magic. the bulls can't even beat the raptors at home in a must win game. it would be a miracle to win the series with the magic (if they keep the 6th spot, that is).

the bulls fans tend to overrate the bulls and get unrealistic hopes, and this is what's happening right now. of course it doesn't mean the bulls should just roll over. they should play to win, but the fans better not get their hopes up. look at it as what it is: every team that became great had 1 or 2 first round exits before they got the playoff experience to compete with the big boys. magic has been there not so long ago, cavs too.
 

Manic Devourer

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

The entire thread has become moot as it looks like the Sixers will sneak a win from the Cavs. The Cavs are down by 3 with 9 ticks to go.
 

J-Mart

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

OT!!!!!
 

TheStig

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Manic Devourer wrote:
The entire thread has become moot as it looks like the Sixers will sneak a win from the Cavs. The Cavs are down by 3 with 9 ticks to go.
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Game went to OT.

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TheStig

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Doesn't look good cavs down 4. Damn cavs.
 

collisrost

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

Ouch. Guess that's it for this thread!
 
cool007

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Re:Bulls take the 6th Seed and Beat Orlando 1st ro

I feel silly big time and I take the FULL blame for everything.

Bulls lose AT HOME against Raptors of all teams and when the stakes were super high. This is bigger than when we lost to Nets on the road coz that Nets team was actually in the playoffs while this Raptors team had NOTHING to play for.

Marion was in full force for Showcasing himself.
 
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