VDN's playoff coaching debut ..

dougthonus

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Well we won the game, so hard to get down on him too much, but....

1) If Pierce doesn't miss a FT then we lose this game because VDN again left us without a timeout in a crucial situation where we need one. Seriously, someone needs to smack this man around and tell him to stop using all our damn timeouts so early.

2) In OT they kept getting switches over and over where Pierce was iso'd on Rose at the FT line while Rose had 5 fouls. It's a miracle that he didn't get a foul call on Rose and that he didn't score every single possession in this situation as well. You have to get the team to get the ball out of Pierce's hands there when Rose can't even defend him strong and would be at a tremendous disadvantage even if he could, and pierce is in range where he's money on a fadeaway with a guy 5 inches shorter than him guarding him.

We did win the game, but VDN put us in a position to lose, and we got some luck.
 

Newskoolbulls

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dougthonus wrote:
Well we won the game, so hard to get down on him too much, but....

1) If Pierce doesn't miss a FT then we lose this game because VDN again left us without a timeout in a crucial situation where we need one. Seriously, someone needs to smack this man around and tell him to stop using all our damn timeouts so early.

2) In OT they kept getting switches over and over where Pierce was iso'd on Rose at the FT line while Rose had 5 fouls. It's a miracle that he didn't get a foul call on Rose and that he didn't score every single possession in this situation as well. You have to get the team to get the ball out of Pierce's hands there when Rose can't even defend him strong and would be at a tremendous disadvantage even if he could, and pierce is in range where he's money on a fadeaway with a guy 5 inches shorter than him guarding him.

We did win the game, but VDN put us in a position to lose, and we got some luck.

what do we pay Del and Bernie for? they need to be in Vinnys ear at all times especially in critical parts of games.
 

RPK

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dougthonus wrote:
Well we won the game, so hard to get down on him too much, but....

1) If Pierce doesn't miss a FT then we lose this game because VDN again left us without a timeout in a crucial situation where we need one. Seriously, someone needs to smack this man around and tell him to stop using all our damn timeouts so early.

2) In OT they kept getting switches over and over where Pierce was iso'd on Rose at the FT line while Rose had 5 fouls. It's a miracle that he didn't get a foul call on Rose and that he didn't score every single possession in this situation as well. You have to get the team to get the ball out of Pierce's hands there when Rose can't even defend him strong and would be at a tremendous disadvantage even if he could, and pierce is in range where he's money on a fadeaway with a guy 5 inches shorter than him guarding him.

We did win the game, but VDN put us in a position to lose, and we got some luck.

Don't forget the boneheaded move of leaving Rose in the final possession to guard Rondo with 5 fouls. There was little chance of the Bulls needing his offense, and with the Bulls up by 2, he risked Rose getting a foul and the game going into a double overtime with no Rose (which nearly happened). If ever there was a situation you sub in Hinrich, it was on that play.
 

dougthonus

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If we lost this game, people would have been calling for his head for sure.
 

Dpauley23

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I don't remember the timeouts situation but I think that was legit as their was many back and forth timeouts to draw up plays at end of the game. It seems like he doesn't sometimes panic at mini runs other teams have
 

Ralphb07

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Dpauley23 wrote:
I don't remember the timeouts situation but I think that was legit as their was many back and forth timeouts to draw up plays at end of the game. It seems like he doesn't sometimes panic at mini runs other teams have

In general he uses a lot of timeouts but that wasn't the case today. The game was going back and forth and the timeouts were needed

Also Doug brings up the Pierce miss FT but if Noah doesn't make that foul there's a good chance he misses and we're not even in that position.

I thought he did well. The thing I didn't like from him was Miller was god awful today and Tyrus should of been back in the game earlier.
 

TheStig

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I think VDN is a good out of game coach. He prepares well and has a solid relationship with this group (minus a BG incident or two). Where he struggles is in game, calling TO's, making defensive adjustments and subs. Those things will come with time but what I like is that he comes up with a solid strategy and finally has people on the same page. Also we normally don't get killed by a teams #1 or #2 option but by an obscure player or a pg. I am starting to come around on VDN. I will give him next yr to prove himself.
 

??? ??????

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I thought Vinny did relatively well. His team was well prepared, played good defense for once, and he didn't slow down the Bulls at all.

Rose - 49 minutes, Gordon 46 minutes. That's good coaching. Keep you're best guys out there.
 

dougthonus

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In general he uses a lot of timeouts but that wasn't the case today. The game was going back and forth and the timeouts were needed

Wrong. In the 4th quarter we used a timeout with 8:45 left after Eddie House hit a 3 point shot. It was their only points of the quarter. After 3:15 seconds into a quarter they get their first basket and we feel we need to stop the momentum? If you gave up only 3 points per 3:15, then you'd have the greatest defense in the history of the league. Bulls miss their next shot and have a turnover on the following possession. I don't see how anything useful was derived from this timeout.

We then use another time out with 3:25 left in the quarter to stop a run where Boston has scored 2 consecutive baskets. It may not be a terrible call to break the momentum, except that we now only have three timeouts left due to absolutely wasting that one with 8:45 left. A 4-0 run isn't anywhere near big enough to sacrifice a TO with 3:25 left in a see saw game. This game has exactly the prototype of a game that will require as many TOs as you can get at the end of the game. Bulls fail to score on the next two possessions, so we gain nothing out of this timeout either.

Now you can only save two full timeouts and one 20 second time out for the final two minutes, so it was fine to call one of the above situations, and the second one was a valid time to use one perhaps. It's just that after we used the first one, it then became unacceptable to call the second one, and the first one was just idiotic.

Also Doug brings up the Pierce miss FT but if Noah doesn't make that foul there's a good chance he misses and we're not even in that position.

Or there's a good chance he makes the shot and we lose and that Noah's foul saved us. No offense, but Pierce shooting a 15 footer contested by a guy 4 inches shorter than him isn't a shot I'd say is more likely to miss than not miss. Of course, if we had the extra time out, then we'd have had a chance even if he made it.
 

Ralphb07

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Wrong. In the 4th quarter we used a timeout with 8:45 left after Eddie House hit a 3 point shot. It was their only points of the quarter. After 3:15 seconds into a quarter they get their first basket and we feel we need to stop the momentum? If you gave up only 3 points per 3:15, then you'd have the greatest defense in the history of the league. Bulls miss their next shot and have a turnover on the following possession. I don't see how anything useful was derived from this timeout.

We then use another time out with 3:25 left in the quarter to stop a run where Boston has scored 2 consecutive baskets. It may not be a terrible call to break the momentum, except that we now only have three timeouts left due to absolutely wasting that one with 8:45 left. A 4-0 run isn't anywhere near big enough to sacrifice a TO with 3:25 left in a see saw game. This game has exactly the prototype of a game that will require as many TOs as you can get at the end of the game. Bulls fail to score on the next two possessions, so we gain nothing out of this timeout either.

Now you can only save two full timeouts and one 20 second time out for the final two minutes, so it was fine to call one of the above situations, and the second one was a valid time to use one perhaps. It's just that after we used the first one, it then became unacceptable to call the second one, and the first one was just idiotic.

Doug this is what IMO you fail to realize. This isn't the Spurs or Cavs even the Pistons that is filled with veteran players. This is a young team that a Eddie House 3 could of turned into a 10 point deficit on the ROAD or that 4-0 run turning into a 10-0 run.

Even if the execution wasn't right after the timeouts it quiets the fans down and let's the players gather themselves.

If our team was a veteran team I think I would be with you on this but since there not and playing the defending champs in game 1 on the road I see nothing wrong with the timeouts. Also Pierce could of waited and took the shot at the buzzer which could of meant not even being able to use that timeout in the situation you're giving. Also if Noah doesn't foul how do we know by the time the ball hits the net that's there even time left. This is why they call it MONDAY QB.
 

dougthonus

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Doug this is what IMO you fail to realize. This isn't the Spurs or Cavs even the Pistons that is filled with veteran players. This is a young team that a Eddie House 3 could of turned into a 10 point deficit on the ROAD or that 4-0 run turning into a 10-0 run.

Could it have? Then any single made basket in the game could have. We should have called a time out every time the Celtics scored until we were out of timeouts.

That logic is ridiculous. We gave up a SINGLE BASKET in a stretch that lasted OVER 3 minutes. We were +1 in points in the quarter.

Even if the execution wasn't right after the timeouts it quiets the fans down and let's the players gather themselves.

The players do not need to gather themselves after a single made basket. If they did, they'd have won 0 games this year.

If our team was a veteran team I think I would be with you on this but since there not and playing the defending champs in game 1 on the road I see nothing wrong with the timeouts. Also Pierce could of waited and took the shot at the buzzer which could of meant not even being able to use that timeout in the situation you're giving. Also if Noah doesn't foul how do we know by the time the ball hits the net that's there even time left. This is why they call it MONDAY QB.

No, it's not MMQB. This is something EVERY COACH IN THE NBA DOES. This is not like some crazy thing I'm coming up with out of no where. This is coaching 101. Go through and see what percentage of games our opposing coach has 2 full time outs and a 20 second when the final 2 minutes starts. It's probably 95% of the time with the other 5% being absolute emergencies (like runs of 3-4 made baskets by the other team, not a single basket over a 3 minute stretch).
 

Hendu0520

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Vinny definately uses way too many timeouts, but so does every other coach. Yes this game he did mess up by not having timeouts left, but it did not end up hurting the Bulls, they didn't need to stop the clock to advance the ball. I think way too many timeouts are used at the end of games, back and forth calling plays should be left to college. These players have been playing so long since they were little, and they are now professionals. The coach shouldn't have to design a play at the end of a game they should have a play already set up for every type of situation. But smart coaches at least keep one in case a loose ball, trapped player, or an inbounds that you can't get in. Doug is right if Pierce doesn't miss that FT ooh, Vinny got lucky that would have burned him, so would have Rose fouling out in OT, and keeping Miller in to suck all game with Tyrus on the bench. I also agree with the Stig, Vinny seems like a good coach out of game. The team has improved and he seems to have found the correct rotation that can get some wins. So far though I have to give him a break because he has shown that he can improve and learn. It took him a while but at least we have seen him change so we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. p.s. Del Harris and Bernie seem worthless they should know all of this, like Tex Winters helped Phil, they are probably a bigger problem.
 

chi_hawks_23

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Ralphb07 wrote:
If our team was a veteran team I think I would be with you on this but since there not and playing the defending champs in game 1 on the road I see nothing wrong with the timeouts. Also Pierce could of waited and took the shot at the buzzer which could of meant not even being able to use that timeout in the situation you're giving. Also if Noah doesn't foul how do we know by the time the ball hits the net that's there even time left. This is why they call it MONDAY QB.

I kind of agree with this...but then I kind of disagree with it as well.

Regardless of where you are at, when you know you are in a close game, you have to save at least a couple 20 second timeouts for the last two minutes.

I understand that Vinny was probably being over-cautious with the team, taking extra timeouts to ensure that they dont get rattled and that the home crowd doesn't get into it too much. But kinda like doug mentioned in his podcast, if Pierce nails that last free throw, we are hosed. Had we had a timeout, we can draw up a play, advance the ball to half court for our inbounds pass. 2.7 seconds is an eternity in those situations, and we could have had a realistic shot at a game winner, versus Millers heave from 85 feet.

Bottom line is that we won the game, but I seriously doubt VDN wanted to burn all of his timeouts so early. Hopefully its something that he learns from and corrects in the upcoming games and future seasons.
 

Hendu0520

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Oh I almost forgot, not double teaming Paul Pierce in OT was insane, The Bulls got sooo lucky there!!
 

maq25060

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Hendu0520 wrote:
Oh I almost forgot, not double teaming Paul Pierce in OT was insane, The Bulls got sooo lucky there!!
i think vinny told his players to either stop switching or to double pierce during one of the last timeouts in OT...

i say this b/c most of the OT the celts ran the ball screen and we didnt do anything about it. but the last time they ran the ball screen salmons stayed with pierce and while rose stayed with pierce as well it seemed as if the play call was for rose to go back as they didnt try a hard trap.

i never understood why ball screens were that hard to defend...you just gotta be quick on the reswitch.
 

maq25060

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my biggest problem with vinny yesterday (outside of the timeout situation) was the fact that he didnt do a good job coaching against the pick and roll. it seems simple enough as everyone does it to us. either you trap (which is always risky as the pg could find the open man) or you hard show. you dont like the pg have a direct line to the basket like we did yesterday. you force them to go further and further outside of that path way.

another problem with the pick and roll defense was our bigs were giving too much space in between themselves and their man (the picker) and it allowed whoever had the ball for the celts to just split in between the 2 of them. that's gotta stop.

since the celts do a lot of splitting of the pick/roll i think we need to try trapping first. if that doesnt work well then we gotta start with the hard shows. force them all the way out to behind the 3 point line.
 

Hendu0520

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maq25060 wrote:
my biggest problem with vinny yesterday (outside of the timeout situation) was the fact that he didnt do a good job coaching against the pick and roll. it seems simple enough as everyone does it to us. either you trap (which is always risky as the pg could find the open man) or you hard show. you dont like the pg have a direct line to the basket like we did yesterday. you force them to go further and further outside of that path way.

another problem with the pick and roll defense was our bigs were giving too much space in between themselves and their man (the picker) and it allowed whoever had the ball for the celts to just split in between the 2 of them. that's gotta stop.

since the celts do a lot of splitting of the pick/roll i think we need to try trapping first. if that doesnt work well then we gotta start with the hard shows. force them all the way out to behind the 3 point line.

Yah that has been Vinny's problem all year. In the beginning of the year he had a switch on every pick policy!!! Are you kidding me is this PAL rec league you don't switch on every pick in the NBA. He eventually got away from that but whoa..
 

sfbullsfan

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Doug, how about this. We are a very young team without much playoff experience. I think the Bulls were much more composed than would have been expected. Perhaps some of their composure was due to regular timeouts called throughout the game where Vinny kept calming them down and re-focusing them. Ultimately when we have more experience, the team will not need these timeouts. But for now we just might need them. Someone need to keep reminding them how to be playing the pick and roll d, etc.
 

Ralphb07

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Could it have? Then any single made basket in the game could have. We should have called a time out every time the Celtics scored until we were out of timeouts.

That logic is ridiculous. We gave up a SINGLE BASKET in a stretch that lasted OVER 3 minutes. We were +1 in points in the quarter.

How many baskets did Boston make in the game? Did Vinny call a timeout at everyone?

So let's not act like these was just normal baskets that Vinny just so happen to call a timeout with.

The players do not need to gather themselves after a single made basket. If they did, they'd have won 0 games this year.

How can you say that? Eddie House is a 3 point shooter. Not a driver not a post guy a 3 pt shooter which was wide open. A team doesn't need to go on a 10-0 run to get a timeout. This is the playoffs on the road against the defending NBA champs. It wasn't just a regular simple basket like your calling it basket. It was a crowd changing basket.There made other baskets in the game when Vinny didn't call a timeout. Didn't Pierce make two threes in a row in the 3rd and if I recall a timeout wasn't called after that.


No, it's not MMQB. This is something EVERY COACH IN THE NBA DOES. This is not like some crazy thing I'm coming up with out of no where. This is coaching 101. Go through and see what percentage of games our opposing coach has 2 full time outs and a 20 second when the final 2 minutes starts. It's probably 95% of the time with the other 5% being absolute emergencies (like runs of 3-4 made baskets by the other team, not a single basket over a 3 minute stretch).

he took his last one with 30 seconds left. Also if Noah doesn't foul Pierce which no coach would of wanted Noah to do,the time might of not matter because there's a good chance the ball goes in close to zero. The clock stops when the foul happens so if no foul occurs maybe we have no time left and this timeout argument is pointless.

The way the game worked out Boston had the final possession and if maybe by not taking these timeouts the game is already over playing a veteran team like Boston


Mike Brown had no timeouts left in the Philly game in the 4th qtr either. Yes every coach would like one left but it doesn't always happen and the game dictates that

My whole point to the argument you have the whole game in front of you to dissect which the coach doesn't have that option.

A coach is on the sidelines and has a better feeling if a run is about to happen and all it takes is one basket. I much rather a coach take a timeout with a young team against the defending champs early than wait until there's a 10-0 run and the game is over.

I agree that Vinny has a bad thing with timeouts but IMO you're taking things prior in the season instead of this game which is different than the Reg season.

Bottom line is we WON the game and I'm looking forward to Game 2. Vinny is 1-0 in the postseason so far and won his 1st game no matter what you or anyone else wants to say about it.
 

Ralphb07

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sfbullsfan wrote:
Doug, how about this. We are a very young team without much playoff experience. I think the Bulls were much more composed than would have been expected. Perhaps some of their composure was due to regular timeouts called throughout the game where Vinny kept calming them down and re-focusing them. Ultimately when we have more experience, the team will not need these timeouts. But for now we just might need them. Someone need to keep reminding them how to be playing the pick and roll d, etc.

Exactly which is being overlooked.

The House 3 could of started a big run but that didn't happen. It wasn't just a normal basket. IMO from watching a lot of playoffs games the type of basket Eddie made usually are the game changing one
 

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