The Revised and Final Case for Gordon

[Fred]

Here's a shamless plug for my article:

Monday Evening, April 20th, 2009…I’m on the 5:48 to Elgin, listening to the Bulls pre-game show on ESPN 1000, and the drone generals start to sing their songs of idiocy. Steve Kashul decided to read an email from some sad, pathetic Gordon-hating loser. To paraphrase, “I don’t care if Ben leaves this summer. The Bulls are better off without him. Kirk Hinrich can do everything Ben can, but with better defense. Bill, do you even want to see him back?”

What’s more appalling? The fact that some basement-dwelling degenerate took the time to drag himself to his parent’s computer to write this nonsense or the fact that Steve Kashul found it brilliant enough to read over the airwaves to thousands of listeners. I submit the latter is more shameful. The author of the email can probably barely zip up his own pants, but Kashul, running the pre and post game shows for the flagship, decides to read the entire question as if it’s inspired scripture.

And how does Bill Wennington answer the question? Bill wants to see him back at the right price. “If Ben wants $70 million, then no. But if’s he willing to take less, then we’ll take him back,” Bill says reluctantly. He then goes into this memorized, “Ben is a Sixth Man” speech, about how he likes “Instant offense” off the bench. These comments were echoing in my head as Ben exposed their stupidity later that night with an incredible performance.

In the 43 years that this organization has existed, we’ve had 5 players average 20 PPG or more for a team that was .500 or better:

• Bob Love
• Chet Walker
• Michael Jordon
• Scottie Pippen
• Ben Gordon.

In the two years where Ben has started, he’s averaged more than 20 PPG. In the three seasons where he’s come off the bench, he hasn’t.

So Bill, I have a few questions for you:

1. With 20 PPG scorers so rare for this organization, why would you not want to pay him?
2. If “Instant Offense” is good in the middle of the first quarter, why wouldn’t it be good at the start of the game?
3. Why do you insist that Ben become a Sixth Man when he clearly is a better starter, and a great fit with Rose?
4. When will you get your head out of your ass when it comes to discussing this subject?

Don’t ever believe that playing in the NBA makes someone smarter than when it comes to judging talent. Isiah Thomas, a vastly superior player to Wennington, proved that once and for all.

For more:
http://www.bullspodcasters.com/artic...ase-for-gordon

[Dpauley23]

Fred its all about buisness. Why would I pay 11 or 12 million a year when it make it impossible to go get another star. You have to remember Rose will get max contract at around 15 million a year. So what you're saying is that you want your 1-2 punch to be Rose and Gordon? Thats not going to get it done considering Gordon has never even made all star game or even came close. He borderline allstar who could make 1 or 2 times in his career. The Bulls need two guys who can get their every year to make them title contenders

[charity stripe]

The guy who wrote the email has a dumb opinion, but why do you have to insult him like that?

[maq25060]

the trend of rudeness continues...

[Fred]

I found his question insulting. To state that we're a better team without Gordon is ridiculous. Gordon, by all accounts, is an incredibly hard worker. He deserves more respect than that. To write such an angry, hating criticism like that, and for Steve Kashul to read it on ESPN radio, is pathetic.

I will apologize for calling him a basement-dwelling degenerate. He probably has a room upstairs.

[Dpauley23]

I don't really care about the article since all you talk about is Gordon

[Fred]

Dpauley23 wrote:

I don't really care about the article since all you talk about is Gordon

That's simply not true. I can talk for hours about how overrated Hinrich is. Doug, can I get a witness?

[st. park]

Why are these media morons so enamored with labeling Ben Gordon as "instant offense off the bench" when we NEED HIS OFFENSE TO START GAMES? The fact is that Gordon has been pigeon-holed a sixth man from his days of being jerked around by Skiles & Boylan, and unfortunately, it doesn't look like he'll ever shake that reputation in this town.

[Dpauley23]

How is Hinrich overrated. I never hear people within Basketball world talk about like he's god. If were going by how the so called "drones" overrate Hinrich then we have to talk about how you overrate Gordon. I've heard you call Gordon close to superstar, which is just making ass out of yourself

[dougthonus]

That's simply not true. I can talk for hours about how overrated Hinrich is. Doug, can I get a witness?

I don't know if that counts. Though you did do a nice job of proving you don't know what you're talking about when discussing how college athletes don't deserve to be paid because the colleges should get 100% of the 100s of billions of dollars that these athletes generate.

[wjb1492]

Fred wrote:

I found his question insulting. To state that we're a better team without Gordon is ridiculous. Gordon, by all accounts, is an incredibly hard worker. He deserves more respect than that. To write such an angry, hating criticism like that, and for Steve Kashul to read it on ESPN radio, is pathetic.

I will apologize for calling him a basement-dwelling degenerate. He probably has a room upstairs.

It's kind of funny, because you do the same thing to Kirk pretty regularly that you complain about the media doing to Ben. He's also an incredibly hard worker by all accounts, has made the team better, and deserves more respect than many of your angry, hating criticisms.

It is possible to like and defend Ben without routinely insulting Kirk and the people who like him.

[dougthonus]

It's kind of funny, because you do the same thing to Kirk pretty regularly that you complain about the media doing to Ben. He's also an incredibly hard worker by all accounts, has made the team better, and deserves more respect than many of your angry, hating criticisms.

It is possible to like and defend Ben without routinely insulting Kirk and the people who like him.

I agree.

It's quite possible to make the case for Gordon without demeaning everyone else on the team or even worse the fans of other players on the team. I find that most people who are Bulls fans like pretty much all of the Bulls.

What is not to like about Kirk Hinrich except his contract (which would likely be fine if it weren't for us drafting Rose)?

Kirk is a hard worker.
Kirk is a good team guy. He's helped Rose all year round while Gordon has basically isolated himself from the rest of the team.
Kirk can play PG or SG.
Kirk's a good defender, and a fundamentally strong player.
Kirk's a solid offensive player.

He's basically a "pretty good" at everything guy who's good in the locker room. Yeah, I think he's probably worth more like 7-8 million a year rather than the 9.5 he got, but really, that's splitting hairs to complain that a guy got maybe 1.5-2.5 million per year over what he's worth.

Over the course of Kirk's contract, he may end up being overpaid by a 5-10 million in total, but there are tons of guys who are overpaid by 40-50 million in total over their contracts, that's an awfully minor complaint in this industry.

I love Gordon. I think he's probably worth about 3-4 million per year more than Hinrich, but there's no reason to hate Hinrich because of that fact. There's no reason to hate on the fans who like him.

[Fred]

I don't hate the fans who like him. I dislike arguing with people who defend postions that are not objectively true.

I've had many, many, many arguments over the past 5 years with Gordon-haters. WITH RARE EXCEPTION, most of them are rabid Hinrich-lovers. I still like and repect people, like Kush and Doug, who like both players. What I don't respect, are people like that moron e-mailer, who say things like, "Kirk is an underrated offensive player, and he's a better shooter than Gordon."

It is an OBJECTIVE FACT that Gordon is a better shooter than Hinrich. Yet I still have those arguments. Hinrich's pluses are subjective. That's fine. You can like him.

I don't dislike Kirk Hinrich. He's had a solid year. He was terrible last year. But I dislike how the media and the fans in general, tend to go out of there way to criticize Ben and praise Kirk. Why? There are probably a myriad of reasons.

So it may appear that I dislike Kirk. I don't. It's kind of like when you date that hot chick in high school with huge breasts. Everyone wants her. Then, you go out with her, and you start seeing these things that few others do. She has no personality, and she has a roaring case of herpes, so you're always stopping at third.

Then you accidentally go out with this other girl, who no one seems to like because she has small breasts and bad hair. But she has a great face and nice legs. And she's fun to be around, and she's has a great personality. So you dump the hot chick to go out with the small breasted one, and everyone thinks you're crazy.

When everyone looks at you like you're crazy for deciding to go with an A-cup over the C-cup, you may find yourself reflexively cringing everytime C-cup walks down the hall.

[Rose1]

IT'S SIMPLE AS THIS, NAME ONE PERSON WHOM CAN REPLACE GORDON SCORING. YOU CAN'T NAME ONE RIGHT OFF THE TOP. YOU CAN'T HOPE WADE DECIDES TO COME BACK TO HIS INDIGENOUS ROOTS. YOU GOT PEOPLE SAYING BULLS CAN DRAFT TERRENCE WILLIAMS. NEWS FLASH, HE CAN'T EVEN SHOOT SO THEREFOR HE CAN'T COMPLEMENT ROSE. POOHDINI LOVES TO DRIVE THE BALL AND TO COMPLEMENT THAT, IT'S OBVIOUS A SHOOTER IS THE WAY TO GO. NOW CHASE BUDINGER IS THE WAY TO GO BUT HE'S NOT GORDON. I HAVEN'T SEEN NO ONE WITH GORDON TALENT BEFORE. HE'S SO SMALL AND HIS DRIBBLE STAYS LOW THAT YOU REALLY CAN'T STOP HIM WITHOUT MAKING IT OBVIOUS YOU'RE FOULING HIM. ON TOP OF THAT, HE'S A 3RD OVERALL PLAYER THAT CAN HIT A SHOT FROM THE THREE POINT LINE ALMOST EVERY TIME HE GETS IT. YOU CAN'T SAY SALMONS AND DENG WITH REPLACE HIS SCORING BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT DURABLE ENOUGH TO GET YOU 10 POINTS ON EVERY POSITION THROUGHOUT THE SEASON. I THINK PAXSON KNOWS WHOM IS MORE CRUCIAL BETWEEN HINRICH AND GORDON.

[dougthonus]

When someone is extraordinarily demeaning to a group of people or a person to the point where they make up things about them just to humiliate them and mock them (like saying someone is a degenerate living in their parent's basement) then would you ever listen to the "logical" part of what that person says?

When you take an argument to a personal level which is purely flaming, illogical, and insulting then no one will ever listen to or trust the logical part of your argument.

It's like B&B on the score. All they do is rip on people and make jokes. Can you take anything they say seriously? If they run into a good point you figure it was coincidence.

I mean I agree with most of what you believe about Gordon too. I do think there are times where he's disrespected, but by making an argument a flame war, you only lower yourself, and you're better than that. I know, because I've argued with you plenty in person. You've never once mocked that fact that I live in my parent's basement.

[Fred]

And as I said in the article, I didn't want this to be about Gordon and Hinrich. I'd love to see them both back next year. They are different players. Hinrich is a better 1 and Gordon is a far better 2. But unfortunately, isn't that the choice? I don't see any other way around it. Because as KC so eloquently said on ESPN this week, Deng's contract and brittleness make him untradeable.

[dougthonus]

I don't think we can dump Hinrich either. We could trade him for an expiring, but not for pure cap space.

I think we're going to have to pay the tax or lose Gordon. I hope we pay the tax.

[Fred]

dougthonus wrote:

When you take an argument to a personal level which is purely flaming, illogical, and insulting then no one will ever listen to or trust the logical part of your argument.

The email, as read by Kashul, was clearly illogical and insulting to Ben and his ability. A clear implication was made that Ben was selfish. I responded in kind. The emailer can hide in his anonymity. His insult was heard by thousands. Was the emailer really hurt by my critique? It wasn't like Steve read the guy's last name. But his stupid email lives on.

Eye for an eye.

[wjb1492]

Fred wrote:

Then you accidentally go out with this other girl, who no one seems to like because she has small breasts and bad hair. But she has a great face and nice legs. And she's fun to be around, and she's has a great personality. So you dump the hot chick to go out with the small breasted one, and everyone thinks you're crazy.

When everyone looks at you like you're crazy for deciding to go with an A-cup over the C-cup, you may find yourself reflexively cringing everytime C-cup walks down the hall.

So now I can be insulted as a Kirk fan and as a female poster? :P

[Fred]

wjb1492 wrote:
[quote]Fred wrote:

It is possible to like and defend Ben without routinely insulting Kirk and the people who like him.

What have I ever said that insulting to Kirk supporters? My only quarrel is with those who hate against Ben.

[clonetrooper264]

Objective fact about Kirk: He is a better defender than Gordon
Objective fact about Ben: He is a lot better on the offensive end

I think people go out and bash Gordon because he is our primary offensive threat. Kirk quite simply is not. What Kirk is supposed to do is play defense and facilitate on offense. Ben is (arguably) our best player and as such is more likely to be subject to criticism. Thus if Ben goes out and has a poor shooting night, "drones" will out and bash him because he didn't do what he is supposed to do, which is score (however chances are he went out and had a clutch 4th quarter if need arose).

And Fred, in your little high school girl analogy there, which one is Kirk and which one is Ben? It could be seen both ways (though I think I know which one you're going to say is who).

Bottom line, I think Ben is a better player by far. Kirk isn't god, but he's not a bad player. I think he's a pretty good player. Sure he's a little overpaid, boo freaking hoo. At least he's not like Deng (massively overpaid for what he does on the court and injury prone at that). Not to say that Deng sucks (which he doesn't) it's just that what you can say is bad about Kirk is equally applicable to Deng.

[Fred]

And again, I am not criticizing the large group of Hinrich supporters because I referred to that emailer as a basement dweller in his parent's basement. That emailer was insulting to Ben Gordon. To send such an email, without any facts to support the argument, is quite pathetic and cowardly. There's nothing wrong with living in your parent's basement. I used to live there too in the 90's. There is something wrong with using it as your base to make stupid, insulting arguments, for Steve Kashul to read, without any facts to back it up.

I've endured many, many, anger and hate filled emails over the years because I've backed Ben and been a critic of Hinrich.

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

And Fred, in your little high school girl analogy there, which one is Kirk and which one is Ben? It could be seen both ways (though I think I know which one you're going to say is who)

I'd equate 41% career shooting with a horrible personality and roaring case of herpes. Nothing against those of you with a horrible personality and a roaring case of herpes, it's just not my cup of tea.

[theCHI_Life84]

i think his main problem is the people who bash on gordon, not necessarily the people who like hinrich. it just turns out that a lot of the people who bash gordon seem to think hinrich is a better player and can do everything bg can do (which, im sure, all of you know this is not true. the numbers are right above you).

ive seen a couple highlight reels that curiously omit bg in favor of throwing in a hinrich jumper, or a dunk highlight from TT (when he gets 4 and 4 the whole game), all while bg scores like 300 points in the game that night. maybe what needs to be said is that ben gordon is a largely UNDERRATED player rather than hinrich being overrated. but nonetheless, i dont think its crazy to feel that hinrich is overrated.

and theres no reason to get offended at the way fred throws the insults around. theyre just for comedic effect imo

[clonetrooper264]

Fred wrote:

And again, I am not criticizing the large group of Hinrich supporters because I referred to that emailer as a basement dweller in his parent's basement. That emailer was insulting to Ben Gordon. To send such an email, without any facts to support the argument, is quite pathetic and cowardly. There's nothing wrong with living in your parent's basement. I used to live there too in the 90's. There is something wrong with using it as your base to make stupid, insulting arguments, for Steve Kashul to read, without any facts to back it up.

I've endured many, many, anger and hate filled emails over the years because I've backed Ben and been a critic of Hinrich.

Yes I will admit that the email was stupid. Obviously that person really doesn't know a lot about Bulls basketball. The way I see it, don't waste your time with them, they don't bother to educate themselves about basketball and aren't worth your time.

Hate filled emails sent because you backed Ben and criticized Hinrich. In some ways aren't those people doing the same for Kirk? You can't fault them because of the fact that they like Hinrich better, you CAN fault them for using poor arguments. Whether that means that you can call them someone who lives in their parents' basement is another matter entirely.

Quite simply, Hinrich supporters are insulted because of the criticism you give, very similar to the way you are insulted by criticism of Ben. Now I don't think this should be about Kirk vs. Ben. They're different players and contribute in different ways, both of which are vital to the success of the team. Honestly, the Bulls are better with both on the team, but if one wishes to keep Ben, then Kirk almost certainly has to go (assuming you want to be cheap like JR and not go over the lux. tax). Not because he's bad, but because he is a luxury we can't afford. Think about it, how much of a benefit is it to have a player who can be a starter on any team in this league coming off the bench? But now I'm getting off topic...

Ben supporters: stop hating on Kirk
Kirk supporters: stop hating on Ben

Now can we please move on with our lives?