12 Years Ago Today...

zack54attack

zack54attack

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Kid K strikes out 20 Houston Astros

Only video on YouTube I could find.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIc2Wh4F4ss]YouTube - Chicago Cubs Kerry Wood strikes out 20 Astros on May 6th, 1998[/ame]
 
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Randy Wells will tonight, and he'll be the new Kid or something like that.
 
zack54attack

zack54attack

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lol.. my bad. Idk why i had 20 on my mind.
 
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Damn, him and Prior could have raped the MLB
 
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Lefty

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Cutsizzle said:
Damn, him and Prior could have raped the MLB
Click to expand...

....if someone would have noticed sooner that Wood throwing across his body and not taking care of himself would result in chronic arm troubles sooner rather than later, then yeah, maybe.
 
USCChiFan

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Dusty Baker ruined Kerry Wood's and Mark Prior's careers. He doesn't know hot to handle a pitching staff and he always overworks his pitchers. He's already messed up Edison Volquez's career, imagine what he'll do to Alrodis Chapman if he stays past this season
 

Lefty

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USCChiFan said:
Dusty Baker ruined Kerry Wood's and Mark Prior's careers. He doesn't know hot to handle a pitching staff and he always overworks his pitchers. He's already messed up Edison Volquez's career, imagine what he'll do to Alrodis Chapman if he stays past this season
Click to expand...

True Dusty does have the reputation of being a horrible manager of starting pitchers, but there were other problems at work with Wood and Prior:

-BOTH Wood and Prior were injury time bombs just waiting to go off, but no one wanted to say a word and mess with the "mojo" the Cubs had going. Wood's was obvious (throwing across his body in a violent matter), while Prior's was more subtle but definitely identifiable to anyone willing to pay attention.

-It is quite possible that Prior was on steroids, hence his HUGE calf muscles and chronic achilles issues. Some believe that those recurring injuries were actually due to the tendon crystallizing from overuse, which sometimes happens to steroid users that are able to work the same muscle groups every single day (the muscles can handle it, but the tendons can't).
 

CubbieBlue

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Lefty said:
-It is quite possible that Prior was on steroids, hence his HUGE calf muscles and chronic achilles issues. Some believe that those recurring injuries were actually due to the tendon crystallizing from overuse, which sometimes happens to steroid users that are able to work the same muscle groups every single day (the muscles can handle it, but the tendons can't).
Click to expand...

That is the first time I have ever heard that about Prior. Interesting point though, and I won't disagree with you on it because you know your shit.
 

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Yeah, I'm not sure exactly HOW the tendons crystallize, though. It may be directly influenced by anabolic steroid injections or indirectly influenced by the "benefits" steroid users receive (quicker muscle recovery resulting in more frequent exercise). There is a debate among doctors over what actually causes the crystallization, the long held belief being it is a form of acidosis brought on by excess lactic acid* produced during exercise (Wikipedia is a hell of a tool, BTW). This would seem to make sense: exercise causes excess lactate to build up and crystallize, with rest allowing for the excess lactate to be removed; frequent exercising of the same muscle group/tendons, though, does not allow for the quick removal of the acid, resulting in increased risk of injury.

This follows in Prior's case, with his leg muscles being abnormally large, playing during the steroid era, frequent tendon issues in his legs, etc.

*for more on lactic acidosis, consult the movie A Few Good Men
 

ButchCrassidy

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USCChiFan said:
Dusty Baker ruined Kerry Wood's and Mark Prior's careers. He doesn't know hot to handle a pitching staff and he always overworks his pitchers. He's already messed up Edison Volquez's career, imagine what he'll do to Alrodis Chapman if he stays past this season
Click to expand...

Dusty Baker? So it was Dusty Baker that had Wood throwing both ends of a doubleheader in the Texas heat when he was a teen? Was Dusty the manager when Wood was throwing 120, 130 pitches in starts in August when he was a rookie? Wood missed 1999...was Baker the manager then? Baker forced Wood to throw across his body? Wood threw the slurve because of him, too? And he overworked Prior? Prior was dominant in 2003...was Baker supposed to pull him after 6 innings a start? Freak injury here, bad Achilles there, some ineffectiveness, and then it was game over for Prior. It's sad that you and others blame Dusty for Wood and Prior's failures as big leaguers, seriously...
 

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My stand corrected about my Wells prediction.
 

Lefty

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ButchCrassidy said:
Dusty Baker? So it was Dusty Baker that had Wood throwing both ends of a doubleheader in the Texas heat when he was a teen? Was Dusty the manager when Wood was throwing 120, 130 pitches in starts in August when he was a rookie? Wood missed 1999...was Baker the manager then? Baker forced Wood to throw across his body? Wood threw the slurve because of him, too? And he overworked Prior? Prior was dominant in 2003...was Baker supposed to pull him after 6 innings a start? Freak injury here, bad Achilles there, some ineffectiveness, and then it was game over for Prior. It's sad that you and others blame Dusty for Wood and Prior's failures as big leaguers, seriously...
Click to expand...

To be fair, 3 of the Cubs' starting pitchers were in the top-11 of the league in Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP) in 2003. In 2004 2 of Dusty's starters were in the top-10 of the league in AVGPAP (average PAP per game, used because much of the rotation get a full season's worth of starts, though Zambrano was in the top-5 of the league in total PAP). In 2005 both Big Z and Prior were in the top-3 in total PAP and AVGPAP. Finally in 2006 only 1 of Dusty's starters appeared near the top of the league in both total PAP and AVGPAP (Big Z), though that is more out of the rotation being a mess that year, with only one player making 25+ starts and 6 other pitchers making between 15 and 5 starts that year.

Take that for what it's worth, but it looks like the criticism Dusty gets for handling pitchers is well-deserved.
 

CBPtOSU

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Wood and Prior were 1-2 in 2003 in pitches thrown. Prior was like 240 pitches behind Wood, and he missed 3 starts with a shoulder injury that year, and BTW, he was allowed to continue pitching in that game when he collided with Giles on the bases. And another great example of Dusty's abuse that year, Game 2 of the NLCS, why was Prior allowed to throw 120 pitches with a 10-run lead?
 

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Lefty said:
To be fair, 3 of the Cubs' starting pitchers were in the top-11 of the league in Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP) in 2003. In 2004 2 of Dusty's starters were in the top-10 of the league in AVGPAP (average PAP per game, used because much of the rotation get a full season's worth of starts, though Zambrano was in the top-5 of the league in total PAP). In 2005 both Big Z and Prior were in the top-3 in total PAP and AVGPAP. Finally in 2006 only 1 of Dusty's starters appeared near the top of the league in both total PAP and AVGPAP (Big Z), though that is more out of the rotation being a mess that year, with only one player making 25+ starts and 6 other pitchers making between 15 and 5 starts that year.

Take that for what it's worth, but it looks like the criticism Dusty gets for handling pitchers is well-deserved.
Click to expand...

So everything before 2003 had nothing to do with their problems? People raved about Prior's "perfect mechanics" at USC, and all of a sudden, after injuries, his mechanics were scrutinized. If Dusty gets blame, then so should the trainers and pitching coaches, who have more expertise on how to rehab players and pitching mechanics than Dusty does. Bottom line is, I'm sure most managers would have ridden Wood and Prior, who were thought to be horses, especially during their prime. The Cubs didn't run away with the division in 2003. And even though it seemed like Wood and Prior were making start after start, throwing 100+ pitches, he would've been criticized if he'd pulled them while watching pitch counts. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't. Now if you have some stats for Baker's time in San Francisco and Cincinnati...
 

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I guess, even though Nenn said he was initially misdiagnosed...
 

Lefty

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ButchCrassidy said:
So everything before 2003 had nothing to do with their problems? People raved about Prior's "perfect mechanics" at USC, and all of a sudden, after injuries, his mechanics were scrutinized. If Dusty gets blame, then so should the trainers and pitching coaches, who have more expertise on how to rehab players and pitching mechanics than Dusty does. Bottom line is, I'm sure most managers would have ridden Wood and Prior, who were thought to be horses, especially during their prime. The Cubs didn't run away with the division in 2003. And even though it seemed like Wood and Prior were making start after start, throwing 100+ pitches, he would've been criticized if he'd pulled them while watching pitch counts. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't. Now if you have some stats for Baker's time in San Francisco and Cincinnati...
Click to expand...

I never said that Dusty was the sole result of the problems Prior and Wood experienced. In fact, in multiple posts in this thread, I talked about Mark Prior's possible steroid use as a source of problems, as well as Wood's mechanics, and never once did I attribute those issues to Dusty. If you're going to quote someone in a retort be sure you actually are aware of their position on the matter before rambling on like a moron (in this case you repeated many of the things that I stated in previous posts).

But, since you asked, let's take a look at the 1997 Giants season, Dusty's fourth season as a manager:

Two of the three pitchers that threw 150+ innings for Dusty's Giants that year appeared in the top-25 of the MLB in Stress (PAP divided by pitches thrown).

For Shawn Estes, 1997 was his first season as a full-time starting pitcher, yet he was 21st in the MLB in Stress and was one of only 39 pitchers in the MLB that year (with 150+ IP) to AVERAGE a Category 2 start or worse. In fact, Estes finished 10th in the MLB in Category 3 starts with 12, was 23rd in the game in Category 4 starts (4) and was one of only 20 starters that year to have a Category 5 start (Mark Gardner, another Giants starter, also appeared on that list).
 
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