Kobe vs. Michael

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

If this topic has come up or has been exhausted in this forum in the past please forgive me. I recently joined and was just wanting to discuss this with people like you who watched Kobe AND Michael play and actually haven't forgotten how great Jordan is.

I can't tell you how mad I get whenever I hear a commentator or anyone say Kobe is as good or even better than Jordan.

Using as many reasons as you can, who is better?

Kobe or Michael?

Let's put this one to bed and prove once and for all how insane it is to say that Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.

[Bullseye]

Look at Jordanīs awards and look at Kobeīs. Thereīs nothing more to say.

[fola]

I dont really have an opinion either way. But I will say that this probably isnt the best forum for this. At leasy not if you want to it be 'fair'.

[dougthonus]

I don't really love Jordan. I really fell in love with the Bulls in the post Jordan-era. That being said, this isn't close.

I don't think you can put this to bed by asking a Bulls forum, because the answers are obviously going to be biased, but if you look at it by any metric it's not even close. There's nothing Kobe did better than MJ. Really. Nothing.

Even all the crap about shooting 3 point shots better, he's about a 1% better 3 point shooter for his career. That's his big edge. Jordan kills him as a defender, kills him as a passer, kills him as a winner, kills him in efficiency, rebounding, everything..

Kobe's best PER in his career is about the same as Jordan's average, and Jordan's best is 5 points better. That's about the difference between an average player and an all-star player or an all-star and a superstar, or in this case the gap between a superstar and the GOAT.

There's really no contest. Talk to me in 10 years, and I bet LeBron James will have a legit claim on Jordan. He may not be conclusively better, but I bet you'll be able to make a case.

[Hendu0520]

Great point but this is just an NBA driven debate, its not even close. Kobay couldn't hold Jordan's jockstrap in any aspect except dribbling, even that Jordan learned you don't have to dribble a lot in fact less dribbling is better Kobay!!!!

Hey Doug I am really curious why you got into the Bulls after the Chips? I think it is great because in New York nobody stuck with the Bulls after Jordan and I don't know anyone who came on board during the bad years. LOL I think that is awesome, true Bulls fan just a little wierd to me though.

[Newskoolbulls]

dougthonus wrote:

I don't really love Jordan. I really fell in love with the Bulls in the post Jordan-era. That being said, this isn't close.

I don't think you can put this to bed by asking a Bulls forum, because the answers are obviously going to be biased, but if you look at it by any metric it's not even close. There's nothing Kobe did better than MJ. Really. Nothing.

Even all the crap about shooting 3 point shots better, he's about a 1% better 3 point shooter for his career. That's his big edge. Jordan kills him as a defender, kills him as a passer, kills him as a winner, kills him in efficiency, rebounding, everything..

Kobe's best PER in his career is about the same as Jordan's average, and Jordan's best is 5 points better. That's about the difference between an average player and an all-star player or an all-star and a superstar, or in this case the gap between a superstar and the GOAT.

There's really no contest. Talk to me in 10 years, and I bet LeBron James will have a legit claim on Jordan. He may not be conclusively better, but I bet you'll be able to make a case.

Can I ask why you dont love MJ? I know he wasnt the best person off the court and many of his own teammates hated him however I always try and look past it.

As for the Kobe Vs MJ thing its really stupid. There is no competition, MJ was flat out better. He had a drive that no one else had.

[TheStig]

MJ was the greatest of all time and Kobe is a healthy Tmac. Jordan makes players around him better, kobe makes better players go elsewhere. Not even close.

[dougthonus]

Hey Doug I am really curious why you got into the Bulls after the Chips? I think it is great because in New York nobody stuck with the Bulls after Jordan and I don't know anyone who came on board during the bad years. LOL I think that is awesome, true Bulls fan just a little wierd to me though.

I first started watching the Bulls as a fan in the 2nd threepete. I watched them during the first threepete because my step father was a huge bulls fan but i was always rooting for the other team.

I used to be a huge white sox fan, and I didn't like Jordan until he joined the White Sox, then when he went back to the Bulls I was just a casual fan, and my roommates in college were big bulls fans, so I watched them a bit more at that point and cheered them on for the final 3 titles.

I didn't really follow the team at all the year after Jordan retired, but then the following year I decided to get season tickets, because I always wanted to have season tickets to something. That was my dream since I was a kid to have White Sox season tickets, but I didn't really care for baseball anymore, and I thought football was a better TV sport, so I got Bulls tickets. Also, the UC being about 20-30 minutes closer to get to didn't hurt.

So I became a more die hard basketball fan when I started going to games all the time. I also then ordered league pass and just started watching basketball in my spare time whenever I could. My basketball knowledge pre-2001 is really mediocre and that of the casual fan. My basketball knowledge post-2001 is much much greater.

I ended up dumping my season tickets the summer after I got them because the Bulls traded away Brand and I was so pissed. I still watched the team, but was not happy with the Chandler/Curry experiment, and grew a hatred for Tim Floyd. I also didn't like Fizer and was pissed at that draft.

I got my season tickets back in 2003 because I missed going to all the games, then got a nice upgrade when they sucked that year, and since then have basically been barely able to move and have had season tickets since.

I used to be a die hard fantasy football player, and I ended up giving that up due to the emotional toll on my wife, she was a fantasy football widow, and we fought about it. When I quit that I joined realgm, so my focus on basketball then became much, much greater (that was in 2004). That's when I started studying the basketball economics and things like that. I think it was 2005 or 2006 when I started working for dratexpress where I started getting more access to inside sources and a professional grade scouting service.

That's more or less my history of basketball knowledge I suppose

[dougthonus]

Can I ask why you dont love MJ? I know he wasnt the best person off the court and many of his own teammates hated him however I always try and look past it.

Well as explained above, I just wasn't that into the Bulls when he played. I recognize his greatness, but I just didn't care that much when he was around.

I initially hated him, I think, because my stepdad loved him so much, and I just wanted to be difficult. I could be wrong, that's sort of psychoanalyzing my past, but growing up my step dad liked the Bulls, Bears, and Cubs, and I only liked the White Sox, so that seems awfully coincidental.

Not to say I didn't get a long with him, I really liked him and got along with him great, but I think I probably had some kind of rivalry thing going there.

[Newskoolbulls]

Thanks Doug. Hey Hendu you live in New York as well? I loved being the only Bulls fan left in New York.

[engies]

Kobe Bryant is a great player no doubt, I definately don't want to sound like I'm selling him short, but he is not nor will ever be better than Jordan. I think Doug pulled out the PER stats which is something I didn't know but it certainly helps solidify the case for Jordan.

People will go on about "well Kobe only has 3 rings & Shaq was on the team & Michael has 6 rings" to me thats a flawed arguement as to why Jordan was better. Bill Russell has 11 rings, does that make him better than Jordan

To me it comes down more to the facts that
*Kobe wasn't really a team player until 3 seasons or so ago
*The only catergory has an edge on is 3pt % & as Doug pointed out....1% better is barely an edge.
*Kobe has never won a defensive player of the year award
*MJ has won the MVP 5 times compared to Kobe's 1 mvp
*MJ played in a tougher & more talented era of basketball. Its only been the past few years that I can say the talent in NBA is back to high standards after the dreary Early to Mid 2000's when T-Mac, A.I., VC, Jason Kidd & Stephon Marbury were the best guards.

I can see the comparison & you can see in Kobe's game, he is influenced by MJ. But he couldn't nail it. I once had an argument with some people I played against who thought Kobe was better just because of the 81 point game. To me that shows the lack of intelligence the casual nba fan has out there.

Lebron is the only player IMO who has a chance to be as good, close to as good or better than MJ. I think Lebron could've handled the physical play of MJ's era as well just due to his sheer strength & size

[Riker]

Well, we can close this debate very quickly if you ask me.

NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS (UPDATED 12/17/08):
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)

1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

(Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 85 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 73 total points
3rd Place: KB, 54 total points



See? Closed. Thanks.


PS no disrespect to any of those 3 GREAT centers, but my personal opinion, I like skill players more, and guards definitely posses more skills than centers.

Therefore, MJ is NBA's GOAT and Magic is right there next to him, IMHO.

[dunkside.com]

Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:

If this topic has come up or has been exhausted in this forum in the past please forgive me. I recently joined and was just wanting to discuss this with people like you who watched Kobe AND Michael play and actually haven't forgotten how great Jordan is.

I can't tell you how mad I get whenever I hear a commentator or anyone say Kobe is as good or even better than Jordan.

Using as many reasons as you can, who is better?

Kobe or Michael?

Let's put this one to bed and prove once and for all how insane it is to say that Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.

I though this was settled when Kobe and the Lakers lost the 2004 finals. If not, last season's finals should have put it to bed for good.

Jordan NEVER lost a final and he always got the Finals MVP (and it wasn't even close).
End of story.

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

And that really is a big point.

Kobe's been to the finals 5 times. But he's lost two of em.

Michael Jordan got there 6 times and unlike Kobe Bean Bryant, he didn't lose one. He's 6-0.

It mostly bothers me when people say "Kobe won 3 before Jordan did."

Kobe came out of High School. Kobe's center was Shaquille O'Neal.

Michael Jordan was going into his senior year of college when he came in. His center was Jawann Oldham (i suppose the Bulls never really had great centers and if they did they were old and gray and brittle) but he didn't exactly have a championship squad right off the bat!

Are you kidding me!?

[clonetrooper264]

This isn't a debate.

Michael was Defensive Player of the Year, won more MVP's (and did so at a much older age), won more finals (6-0 can't argue with that). And oh yeah, he won finals MVP EVERY SINGLE TIME! Kobe's a great player, no doubt, but good luck to him to try and beat that.

There's also the fact that MJ would probably score about 40 a game with the defense and calls that are made nowadays.

I feel like a broken record since pretty much every point I made was probably already said so I'll make up my own crappy reason: MJ is rated higher in NBA video games When he isn't on the Wizards anyway :P

[hfritz32]

The only way you could even START to have this discussion is if Kobe won the finals last year and won it this year and played outstanding throughout the playoffs. Even then Kobe would still have a ton of ground to make up.

The real debate is who do you think will end up being the best player of all time MJ or LeBron. LeBron has the work ethic, the physical body and skill to become a better player that MJ was. In my opinion based mainly on his size and athleticism I think Lebron will eventually be better than MJ was. I do not think he will ever win as many championships, or MVP awards as MJ, so i dont think people will ever say Lebron is better but we will just have to wait and see what happens.

[clonetrooper264]

hfritz32 wrote:

The only way you could even START to have this discussion is if Kobe won the finals last year and won it this year and played outstanding throughout the playoffs. Even then Kobe would still have a ton of ground to make up.

The real debate is who do you think will end up being the best player of all time MJ or LeBron. LeBron has the work ethic, the physical body and skill to become a better player that MJ was. In my opinion based mainly on his size and athleticism I think Lebron will eventually be better than MJ was. I do not think he will ever win as many championships, or MVP awards as MJ, so i dont think people will ever say Lebron is better but we will just have to wait and see what happens.

I agree, with LBJ's athletic ability combined with just his body, I'd say he has the potential to be better than MJ. He just needs to actually play defense and win DPOY legitimately and then the rumors will begin. One day though, whether it's now or later, there will be a player that is better than MJ. Someone will take "don't be like me, be better than me" to heart and will actually be better than him somewhere down the road. Quite frankly, Kobe isn't that person.

[Kush77]

Kobe vs. Jordan, there's no debate, Jordan is better.

It remains to be seen with LeBron James. His numbers are great, but let's see how he does when he gets older.

That's the one thing I believe Jordan doesn't get enough credit for. He was the oldest MVP ever at age 35. At 35 he was still the best player in the game. With the Wizards at the age of 39 and 40 he was putting up 20 ppg. And there's people out there that make fun of him with the Wizards and all, but the fact of the matter is he was a 39 year old shooting guard averaging 20 ppg. Guys like Reggie Miller and John Stockton were basically role players by that point in their career.

LeBron will probably pass MJ on the scoring list because Jordan retired twice, and he got the head start by not going to college. Hell, LBJ will probably top Kareem if he plays long enough.

[dougthonus]

LeBron will never pass Jordan's PPG average though. That's why MJ is the greatest scorer of all time. I don't think LeBron will ever be considered a better scorer than Jordan, but he very well may be considered a better player because of his advantages on the glass and his passing mentality.

He likely won't. I think when LeBron's career is over MJ will be considered the best. LeBron has a legit chance though.

[Kush77]

dougthonus wrote:

LeBron will never pass Jordan's PPG average though. That's why MJ is the greatest scorer of all time. I don't think LeBron will ever be considered a better scorer than Jordan, but he very well may be considered a better player because of his advantages on the glass and his passing mentality.

He likely won't. I think when LeBron's career is over MJ will be considered the best. LeBron has a legit chance though.

Yeah, LBJ won't get the scoring average because those first few years where he averaged like 17ppg and 22, or whatever it was, sets him back. Same with Kobe. I think Kobe averaged about 7ppg his rookie year, so because of those early years he would never come close to Jordan's average.

We'll have to see if LBJ can actually keep up with the 8 boards and 7.5 assists every year as he gets older.

[Riker]

Kush77 wrote:

We'll have to see if LBJ can actually keep up with the 8 boards and 7.5 assists every year as he gets older.

At the moment, there isn't any player more aware of his stats and dedicated to stat padding than James.


And his "rebounding" is pathetic.

Why? Well...................you can collect those leftover shots and stat pad your rebounds all day long, but for offensive boards you need to actually hustle to REBOUND, correct?

Now, I'm not going to post it, go find out for yourself Jordan's career offensive RPG, and James'.

...:S

[clonetrooper264]

Riker wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

We'll have to see if LBJ can actually keep up with the 8 boards and 7.5 assists every year as he gets older.

At the moment, there isn't any player more aware of his stats and dedicated to stat padding than James.


And his "rebounding" is pathetic.

Why? Well...................you can collect those leftover shots and stat pad your rebounds all day long, but for offensive boards you need to actually hustle to REBOUND, correct?

Now, I'm not going to post it, go find out for yourself Jordan's career offensive RPG, and James'.

...:S

MJ career ORPG: 1.6
LBJ career ORPG: 1.3

and just for fun here are the other rebounding numbers
MJ career DRPG: 4.7
LBJ career DRPG: 5.7

MJ total RPG: 6.2
LBJ total RPG: 7

So as you can see, there's only a slight edge in rebounding for LBJ

As for assists...MJ: 5.3 LBJ: 6.7.

Like Kush said, let's see if LeBron can keep these numbers up

[dunkside.com]

Riker wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

We'll have to see if LBJ can actually keep up with the 8 boards and 7.5 assists every year as he gets older.

At the moment, there isn't any player more aware of his stats and dedicated to stat padding than James.


And his "rebounding" is pathetic.

Why? Well...................you can collect those leftover shots and stat pad your rebounds all day long, but for offensive boards you need to actually hustle to REBOUND, correct?

Now, I'm not going to post it, go find out for yourself Jordan's career offensive RPG, and James'.

...:S

Yeah, you're not going to post them cause the actual numbers kinda show you're full of (sh)it.
Jordan - 1.6 orb/game
Lebron - 1.3 orb/game

Yeah, Jordan was shorter and not built like a tank, but Jordan was an excellent rebounder for his size. And I doubt anyone claimed Lebron was the next Rodman.

You can also point to the fact that the game was faster in the '90s (1990 Bulls had 96.7 possessions per game, compared to just 88.7 for the Cavs this season). There were more possessions per game, so more shots, thus more chances to rebound. Just like in the '60s the pace was incredible, which is a big reason why wilt averaged 25 reb/game in one season.

You claim on another thread that "We know he's a nobody in rebounding, he just collects the garbage rebounds all the time" which makes me wonder why isn't everybody averaging 7.5 reb a game. How come he's 27 overall in reb/game while playing in one of the slowest paced teams in the league (25th of 30) ?
There's only one guy shorter than him that averages more reb/game, and that is Gerald Wallace. But Lebron has more reb/game than Lamarcus Aldridge, Rasheed and Josh Smith - they all play PF/C (so closer to the basket) and should get more rebounds.

I can see you're blinded by hate and my arguments will fall on deaf years, but the fact is that most of your "arguments" against him are just fallacies.
He IS that good, whether you like it or not. And you'll probably have to witness (pun intended) him winning titles, building his legacy and being legitimately included in the discussion for the GOAT, so ... enjoy !!

[Shakes]

LeBron came awfully close to equaling MJ's best year in PER this year. He did it on a team that was better than any of the teams MJ put up 31+ PERs on too.

I think unless LeBron's career is derailed by injury he's certain to at least be a legitimate contender for GOAT by the end of it. Not saying he'll be considered the best, but he'll at least be someone people wont laugh at you if you say he's the best.

[Riker]

I don't care about his PER, he didn't break it, and I wouldn't care if he did.

He doesn't impress me, he has no footwork, no post play, no dribble, the only game he has is bulldozing to the hoop, and crying to refs if they don't give him additional free throw.

Sometimes he knocks 3's down. Sometimes he bricks.


His shot chart is disgusting.



Case closed. You continue witnessing the biggest fraud of the league, I gave up on it long time ago.