The Importance of Soriano

Just dropped him in fantasy. So yeah, don't miss him, loved him at first, fell out of love towards the end. We were in the right trading him to a contender. Best for him and the Cubs, whether Boo agrees or not.

vick27m said:

Just dropped him in fantasy. So yeah, don't miss him, loved him at first, fell out of love towards the end. We were in the right trading him to a contender. Best for him and the Cubs, whether Boo agrees or not.

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Best for Soriano......indeed. Hell, it would be best for any Cubs player to be going to a contender.

As far as best for the Cubs, you're going to have to convince me and a few others on that one, and remember, his contract was up at the end of this year.

In reality, he was probably let go because he had better suites on road trips at hotels than the VP and GM because they had to share a single-bed room together, and dine on stale donuts from the continental breakfast bar at the Econo-Lodge.

The Cubs should have just let him finish his contract with the team. His contract went through 2014, right? It's not like they were going to get and equal and/or better replacement or bring up one of their top prospects.

I know he was of to a slow start this season, but with Starlin Castro and Anthony Rizzo playing well, having someone like Alfonso Soriano helps a lot.

Wasn't Soriano the one player on the team that could actually drive in runs last season?

Rory Sparrow said:

Those runs didn't really count, though, because Soriano had to hit HRs in order to drive in the runs. It would have been much better had Soriano changed it up a bit...a sac fly here, a single there, etc.

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LOL. Kind of like how people wanted Starlin Castro to change it up? Who cares that he had 200 hits and batted .300 when he was aggressive, he needs to be patient and take walks! No more getting on base from hits.

dabears253313 said:

The Cubs should have just let him finish his contract with the team. His contract went through 2014, right? It's not like they were going to get and equal and/or better replacement or bring up one of their top prospects.

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Except the fact they actually are getting better production out of Lake right now.

beckdawg said:

Except the fact they actually are getting better production out of Lake right now.

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I actually like Junior Lake. It would be cool if the Cubs had not traded away Soriano and then they could have Lake in CF and Soriano in LF.

dabears253313 said:

I actually like Junior Lake. It would be cool if the Cubs had not traded away Soriano and then they could have Lake in CF and Soriano in LF.

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And then Bonifacio doesn't play as often(or Lake) and he's been lighting it up. The simple fact of the matter is Soriano isn't hitting that well at .208/.255/.438 with 3 homers 6 runs and 4 RBIs in 51 plate appearances. Lake is hitting .270/.308/.541 with 2 homers 5 runs and 3 RBIs in 40 PAs. This also isn't just a "slump" for Soriano. He hit .259/.288/.472 last season in the first half as well as .255/.302/.489 for the season. In 2011 he hit .244/.289/.469. In 2009 he hit .241/.303/.423. If Soriano still played 2B I'd be far less critical of him. LF is where you generally hide decent hitters who don't play great defense. Let me put it this way. If I were to ask you if the cubs traded for Chris Carter would you even give a shit? I'm guessing not and wouldn't be surprised if you asked "who?" But consider the stats Soriano and Carter put up last season.

Carter(for the Astros) - 29 homers 64 runs 82 rbis 2 SB .223/.320/.451
Soriano - 34 homers 84 runs 101 rbis 18 SB .255/.302/.489

Soriano has slightly more power and slightly better average but didn't walk as much and thus his OBP is lower. If you put Carter on the yanks for half a year their run/rbi totals are likely similar. Maybe Soriano is slightly better overall but that's not really my point. My point is Soriano is at best an average LF. He's largely living off his past glory and reputation. He's 38 and would it really be that shocking to see his poor early season play continue over the entire season?

Now I get the argument that Soriano if he's an average OF may be better than what the cubs have. As I've shown, thus far Lake is better but you could argue something like Lake in RF, trade Schierholtz, Soriano in LF and Bonifacio in CF. Feasibly something like that could work. But to what end? They aren't going to sign him as a 39 year old to play LF next year. Would him being on the cubs this year actually change anything? I'm pretty optimistic about this team suggesting they could win 70-75 games. Most aren't that high on the team. But even if Soriano is better than what they have he's not getting them 10 more wins. In other words, Soriano being on this team is totally irrelevant. On the contrary, getting Lake every day experience in LF may end up making him a better player in 2015. Playing Bonifacio in CF may give them a full time player in 2015. Schierholtz may or may not be traded this year but he very well could end up on the team in 2015 and even if he is traded someone like Vitters or whomever they decide to play instead of Schierholtz would see at bats that may actually have some impact on the next 2-3 years.

Long story short who the fuck cares that Soriano is gone? He's not a 30 year old player who's had 1-2 bad years and could turn things around. He's a 38 year old who's nearing the end of his career and may not even be in the majors in 2015. It's not like they traded away a star in their prime. The cubs have had him for the past 5 years where they won 66 games, 61 games, 71 games, 75 games, and 83 games. He's made them at best two games over .500 in those 5 years. His first couple years with the cubs are probably underrated but he's not that guy anymore. I don't care about his past. I care about who the cubs will be playing in the OF over the next 2-3 years. Maybe Lake ultimately doesn't work out. Maybe Vitters is forever a 4A player. Maybe any other of the guys they end up playing there are total shit. But then you at least know and can try to address it via trade/FA/whatever. I already know for a fact that Soriano given his age wasn't going to be a part of a contending cubs team at this point in his career.

LAke isnt playing everyday which is just fucking stupid.

SilenceS said:

LAke isnt playing everyday which is just fucking stupid.

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It's pretty close. Lake has 40 PAs to Rizzo's 58. Some of that likely has to do with Lake hitting lower in some orders. Lake's probably going to end up with something like 550-600 PAs vs the 690 Rizzo had last year. I do agree I'd like to see him more but 600ish PAs is pretty good for a player that young. Keep in mind Soriano only had 626 PAs last year. Also, even when Lake doesn't start you will often see him in pinch hitting circumstances.

SilenceS said:

LAke isnt playing everyday which is just fucking stupid.

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Lake could be playing CF, Bonafacio 2nd base, and Soriano in left, and then shift them for defensive purposes if they are winning and use Bonafacio to spell relief at other positions.

Cubs get an additional power hitter that they could use as well as a veteran presence, and two pretty fast dudes play everyday, plus Lake gets his playing time. See how easy that is?

Bear Pride said:

You've got to be kidding. We tried to dump his salary for years. Sori was the worst kind of player, imo. He's play great and put up big numbers, only to choke in the big games! No thanks!

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Sounds like a big fit for the Cubs, we don't play many big games :rofl:

Soriano could have been a good mentor for Lake as well.

Boobaby1 said:

Lake could be playing CF, Bonafacio 2nd base, and Soriano in left, and then shift them for defensive purposes if they are winning and use Bonafacio to spell relief at other positions.

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Until maybe the end of june. By that time you're almost assuredly see either Alcantara or Baez and possibly both as infielders. Then what? Do you trade Soriano at the deadline to get Lake and others more playing time? What if you can't find any takers? What if he uses his NTC to block trades? I guess my point is what's it really gaining you? For example, I get why some want to blast the front office for trading Garza away. Garza in theory could be a pitcher the cubs could have used over the next several years. Soriano was gone after this year regardless of whether they traded him or not. If Soriano was the difference between making the playoffs or not then fine I get why people may be upset. But even if he adds 5 wins are they even a .500 team? And that's before considering the fact as a 38 year old he could fall off really hard and not even be an average MLB player.

And not for nothing but Black who they got back had a 2.88 ERA with the cubs in A+ and thus far this season he has a 2.57 ERA in AA. So, like I've said before I just don't get the angst. Maybe Black never amounts to anything but he like the players they are playing over Soriano might actually contribute to 2015+.

beckdawg said:

Until maybe the end of june. By that time you're almost assuredly see either Alcantara or Baez and possibly both as infielders. Then what? Do you trade Soriano at the deadline to get Lake and others more playing time? What if you can't find any takers? What if he uses his NTC to block trades? I guess my point is what's it really gaining you? For example, I get why some want to blast the front office for trading Garza away. Garza in theory could be a pitcher the cubs could have used over the next several years. Soriano was gone after this year regardless of whether they traded him or not. If Soriano was the difference between making the playoffs or not then fine I get why people may be upset. But even if he adds 5 wins are they even a .500 team? And that's before considering the fact as a 38 year old he could fall off really hard and not even be an average MLB player.

And not for nothing but Black who they got back had a 2.88 ERA with the cubs in A+ and thus far this season he has a 2.57 ERA in AA. So, like I've said before I just don't get the angst. Maybe Black never amounts to anything but he like the players they are playing over Soriano might actually contribute to 2015+.

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And once again, who does Soriano block? Lake? Move him to center then and Bonafacio to 2B and ass can Barney.

Surely you can shuffle players around and bench players that aren't hitting, and trust me, there are enough to go around. Maybe Black will make it and I hope he does, but mind you, it already costs the Cubs 20 million to play guys like Kalish, Sweeney, and Lake, and hopefully, Black somehow pans out in the future. That is an awful amount of risk, and for a team pinching pennies, that doesn't seem like a good investment on the dollar to me.

Mr. Cub said:

Soriano could have been a good mentor for Lake as well.

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There is more to Soriano then everyone sees. They tend to focus solely on OBP and Avg, but have no problem having Nate in RF with an Avg of .250 and OBP of .260 and can't hit lefties to save his ass, and meanwhile Ruggiano at .158 Avg, .238 OBP, Kalish at .160 Avg. .250 OBP, and Sweeney at .172 Avg .242 OBP round out the field. And do I need to bring up Barney's stats?

For the life of me, I can't understand why ticket sales are plummeting?

Boobaby1 said:

And once again, who does Soriano block? Lake? Move him to center then and Bonafacio to 2B and ass can Barney.

Surely you can shuffle players around and bench players that aren't hitting, and trust me, there are enough to go around. Maybe Black will make it and I hope he does, but mind you, it already costs the Cubs 20 million to play guys like Kalish, Sweeney, and Lake, and hopefully, Black somehow pans out in the future. That is an awful amount of risk, and for a team pinching pennies, that doesn't seem like a good investment on the dollar to me.

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And once again, what difference does Soriano make? As I said, sure you can move Bonafico to 2B until around midseason. Then you are actually blocking players once guys like Baez and Alcantara see the majors. Look, if Soriano was 30 and nearing FA I can see the point in keeping him. But he's 38 for fuck sake. If the cubs had kept him you're playing him in the hopes of what? A .500 team in 2014 and nothing going forward? And there's no guarantee a 38 year old Soriano is even as good as a 24 year old Lake or whomever you are playing instead of him. After today's games he is hitting .226/.268/.434

I just legitimately don't see what the cubs have to gain. If you could guarantee that he A) would hit and B) would allow the cubs to trade him, then I could see the argument for getting more in trade. However, they tried to trade him in 2012 to the Giants and he blocked it. And it appears to be 50/50 at best on whether or not he's even an improvement on what the cubs are playing instead of him. So once again I ask, what difference does Soriano make? If the cubs win 75 games instead of 70 are you seriously going to tell me you're happy with their season? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm against improving the team. But, if you're going to do it I sure hope it's someone who's going to be around for more than 1 year.

beckdawg said:

And once again, what difference does Soriano make? As I said, sure you can move Bonafico to 2B until around midseason. Then you are actually blocking players once guys like Baez and Alcantara see the majors. Look, if Soriano was 30 and nearing FA I can see the point in keeping him. But he's 38 for fuck sake. If the cubs had kept him you're playing him in the hopes of what? A .500 team in 2014 and nothing going forward? And there's no guarantee a 38 year old Soriano is even as good as a 24 year old Lake or whomever you are playing instead of him. After today's games he is hitting .226/.268/.434

I just legitimately don't see what the cubs have to gain. If you could guarantee that he A) would hit and B) would allow the cubs to trade him, then I could see the argument for getting more in trade. However, they tried to trade him in 2012 to the Giants and he blocked it. And it appears to be 50/50 at best on whether or not he's even an improvement on what the cubs are playing instead of him. So once again I ask, what difference does Soriano make? If the cubs win 75 games instead of 70 are you seriously going to tell me you're happy with their season? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm against improving the team. But, if you're going to do it I sure hope it's someone who's going to be around for more than 1 year.

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Soriano doesn't play 2nd base, and he, nor his cohorts would have blocked anyone in the event that Baez or Alcantara come up. For Gods sake, you act as if the Cubs have Yankee payroll players at every position. A lot are at the league minimum, and 90% are expendable at the drop of a hat. Almost everyone has been wanting his contract off the books for the last 3 or more years. Guess what? It still isn't and he isn't playing here anymore.

And as far as guarantee's, why don't you make some with Lake, Sweeney, Olt, Kalish, and Ruggiano? Tell which one of these guys is a guarantee to be on the team in the future? Considering most aren't batting their weight........this ought to be interesting.

Boobaby1 said:

Soriano doesn't play 2nd base, and he, nor his cohorts would have blocked anyone in the event that Baez or Alcantara come up. For Gods sake, you act as if the Cubs have Yankee payroll players at every position. A lot are at the league minimum, and 90% are expendable at the drop of a hat. Almost everyone has been wanting his contract off the books for the last 3 or more years. Guess what? It still isn't and he isn't playing here anymore.

And as far as guarantee's, why don't you make some with Lake, Sweeney, Olt, Kalish, and Ruggiano? Tell which one of these guys is a guarantee to be on the team in the future? Considering most aren't batting their weight........this ought to be interesting.

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And neither is Soriano right now. And there in lies the problem with your argument. Soriano in no way is a guarantee to be better than any of those players you mentioned and even if he is so what? An in his prime Soriano makes a bad cubs team average at best but by no means good. It really comes down to the question is what does the loss of Soriano cost you? Given that you keep avoiding the question I think you realize that losing him doesn't really change the outcome of this season for the cubs. Black and money may or may not be a good return. It remains to be seen.

Look if you want to bitch about them not doing more to replace Soriano then fine. I think that's a perfectly reasonable argument. For example, take the Dempster trade. Dempster wasn't quite as old as Soriano but similarly he was of an age that didn't fit into the longer term rebuild. They traded Dempster and tried to sign Sanchez ultimately settling for Jackson who looks like a mistake but that's another issue. However, to sit here and defend Soriano like he's a difference maker for the cubs is silly. He's totally irrelevant. Perhaps they should have used that money they saved on Soriano and used it to bring in a better OF than the wavier wire hopes they got. I'm not entirely sure who that would be but I see the point.

Rory Sparrow said:

You are looking at this completely wrong, as you typically do. Its not a question of whether or not Soriano will make the Cubs significantly better in the W/L department (an aside, I don't think 1941 Ted Williams could make the 2014 Cubs lineup above average), but how getting rid of Soriano affected/stunted the development of "foundation pieces" like Castro and Rizzo.

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Rizzo hit .233/.323/.419 last year with Soriano for most of the year. He's hitting .333/.403/.519. That's being stunted? Similarly, Castro hit .245/.284/.347 last year with Soriano and is hitting .298/.322/.439 this year. So, you can make that argument but it doesn't appear to be the case. And even if I humor the argument, Soriano is hitting .226/.268/.434. If he continues that then how is he helping them?

beckdawg said:

Rizzo hit .233/.323/.419 last year with Soriano for most of the year. He's hitting .333/.403/.519. That's being stunted? Similarly, Castro hit .245/.284/.347 last year with Soriano and is hitting .298/.322/.439 this year. So, you can make that argument but it doesn't appear to be the case. And even if I humor the argument, Soriano is hitting .226/.268/.434. If he continues that then how is he helping them?

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He just said! Veteran presence.

And as far as Rizzo and Castro, chalk up Rizzo to the league adjusting to him in typical sophomoric slumps. and Castro................chalk that up to Dale Sveum, or the brass that tried to have him change. Never once have I heard anything negative about Soriano from team mates or brass.....but from only fans.

And as far as Soriano's current average (which he has been streaky forever), you still have avoided how the players that are batting under .175 are helping the team.

Tell me how many players on the Cubs current roster are better than Soriano everyday? I can guarantee you that there would be a place for Soriano to play. He is/was the best outfielder they have had since Sosa and Alou whether you like him or not, and to claim otherwise, is crazy talk.