Dwight Howard

TheStig wrote:

I think you guys are overrating Howard a bit and are jumping the gun in calling him top 5 all time.

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We're not talking about Howard being top 5 now, we're talking about whether he will be by the time he's done. He's only 23, he conceivably still has a decade of playing at a high level to go.

Dwight Howard to me can be projected to be the 2nd best Center of all time. If he keeps up this pace he will be right behind Shaq. In arguing big men it is hard but we have to look at the Centers in their era and their accolades. I've read that some people would take Olajuwon over Shaq and that is just crazy, Shaq got outplayed by Hakeem in his rookie season, Shaq would have killed him just a few years later. Plus MVP voting is so stupid it is better to look at Finals MVP's. Shaq has 3, there was a book that I read, I can find out the name and author if someone wants it, but it tried to make an argument for anyone to be the GOAT in NBA History other than Michael Jordan. The person he came up with was Shaq, he avg. like 30/15 in the playoffs, won 3 Chips in a row, and dominated in the best Center era of all time. Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, Rik Smitty even would be great right now. The 70's saw some good ones Willis, Wes Unseld, Kareem, Walton (if he ever played, Yao ming of 70's, even worse actually). Russell played against Wilt, and that's about it. Wilt dominated him and although Russell always won, he had such a better team, so he is not even the best in his era. The other players were Bob Pettite 6'8 rounding up, Red Kerr 6'10 and a few other small centers, also look at the possessions, playing time like Doug said. Also take a look at the shooting percentages from back then, god aweful and they say the players can't shoot nowadays, wow. And if you ever see a film of these old games, there is absolutely no contact or defense. Russell just blocked shots and rebounded, that's about it. He never defended well one on one and he couldn't even go out and guard a smaller guy on the perimeter. I'll take Kevin Garnett as a defender any day over the nonversitile Bill Russell. So he could only play one end of the floor and guard one man only and help block shots and rebound. How can he be the best if he could only play one end and isn't even the best ever on that end? The entire time I watch a Russell game I am yelling at players to get up on their man, it is amazing they are all a couple feet back, no one ever gets in anyones grill, even in the post Wilt hardly ever touched anyone. Don't even let me start on Babe Ruth, they didn't even relieve pitchers back then or have black players or night games etc, etc...So if a pitcher's arm was dead they just lit him up for the rest of the game.

Hakeem has 2 Finals MVP's, did he get a season MVP? and not even close to the consistent numbers of Shaq, he blows him away. Wilt has comparible stats but if you adjust them they are about the same and against worse comp. Shaq was the same athlete and even bigger. I dare you to say that any of the great Centers could get the rebound, start the fast break himself, go behind the back on a few guys and lay it in on the other end, just a phenominal athlete. Could Russell even dribble at all?

Kareem racked up a lot of points and played for 90 years. Not only did he play no defense he went to a team that only needed him to score a bit and rebound so it allowed him to play so long and rack up all of those points. Did Kareem get a Finals MVP? Maybe with Milwaukee in '71 with Oscar? His most famous Finals moment to me was when he was injured and the rookie Magic Johnson played Center to bring home the Chip. He was very soft and Wilt, Shaq or Howard would really hurt him. He would always hold his own because of the sky hook but Shaq's numbers other than scoring blow his out of the water and so do his Finals MVP's.
Shaq also led his team to the Finals in his first year and won his first Championship in 7 years with another team. If you break down the greatest Centers of all time Shaq blows everyone away but Wilt, and Wilt only won 1 Chip in his prime when he was the main man.
Shaq is the greatest Center of all time by far and Howard is that type of guy. Unfortunately unless some competition comes around for Howard he won't pass Shaq either.

Shaq had the talent, skillset, and body to be the GOAT. He should be the GOAT. But he didn't have the discipline or temperament to become the GOAT.

You can see some parallels between Shaq and Howard, in the way that other team's defenses just panic when Howard gets the ball. He's a force. If Howard continues to polish his post moves, or learns to shoot free throws, it will be very difficult to beat his teams. Dwight has the discipline and temperament it seems. With Howard, it's just a matter of adding more skills. With Patrick Ewing working with him, he might just add the skills to enter GOAT territory. Howard has a chance to be the GOAT. Lebron's a great basketball talent, but he will never be a defensive anchor like Howard.

This is not to say that Howard will be the GOAT, or that I think Howard will be it. I don't, I think Jordan will come through this class of superstars (Wade/James/Howard/Durant/Paul/Williams) as the GOAT. But Howard has all the tools to be one of the greatest of all time, and he seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders too.

??? ?????? wrote:

Shaq had the talent, skillset, and body to be the GOAT. He should be the GOAT. But he didn't have the discipline or temperament to become the GOAT.

You can see some parallels between Shaq and Howard, in the way that other team's defenses just panic when Howard gets the ball. He's a force. If Howard continues to polish his post moves, or learns to shoot free throws, it will be very difficult to beat his teams. Dwight has the discipline and temperament it seems. With Howard, it's just a matter of adding more skills. With Patrick Ewing working with him, he might just add the skills to enter GOAT territory. Howard has a chance to be the GOAT. Lebron's a great basketball talent, but he will never be a defensive anchor like Howard.

This is not to say that Howard will be the GOAT, or that I think Howard will be it. I don't, I think Jordan will come through this class of superstars (Wade/James/Howard/Durant/Paul/Williams) as the GOAT. But Howard has all the tools to be one of the greatest of all time, and he seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders too.

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PO3 I agree with your assessment of Howard but if not Shaq who is the greatest Center of all time? You might have meant GOAT overall so I apologize if you do think Shaq is the best center and you were just saying Jordan is better, then I do agree, Jordan is the best I know that, the book was just saying if you could make an argument. But as far as Centers I can't find any stats that are way better than Shaq's and any argument against the talent he played against or his amount of winning. The only Center with better stats is Wilt. The only Center that won more was Russell. Who then? Oh not to mention they created Zone defenses to stop him, the first time the game had changed to stop a player since Wilt, wow, who else could there be? And please don't say he had no moves and just barrelled into everyone, that is an old timers argument who don't understand his amazing footwork, athletecism, and hands that he showed throughout his career. You could argue he could have rebounded more during his games, but his rebounding was pretty good anyway and during the playoffs he always dominated both ends of the floor. If he rebounded more he would have outlandish numbers. Look at his playoff numbers, they go up, Wilt's go down.

I think a lot of people looked at Shaq as a bully but he was going up against the Best Centers of all time and some other big solid ones as well (Longley, Sabonis) I just think that when we look back we will miss the fact that we got to see the 2 most dominating players in the NBA back to back and even somewhat against each other. Now Lebron and maybe Howard come along to give us what could be the greatest 4 of all time, back to back to back to back.

Hendu0520 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Shaq had the talent, skillset, and body to be the GOAT. He should be the GOAT. But he didn't have the discipline or temperament to become the GOAT.

You can see some parallels between Shaq and Howard, in the way that other team's defenses just panic when Howard gets the ball. He's a force. If Howard continues to polish his post moves, or learns to shoot free throws, it will be very difficult to beat his teams. Dwight has the discipline and temperament it seems. With Howard, it's just a matter of adding more skills. With Patrick Ewing working with him, he might just add the skills to enter GOAT territory. Howard has a chance to be the GOAT. Lebron's a great basketball talent, but he will never be a defensive anchor like Howard.

This is not to say that Howard will be the GOAT, or that I think Howard will be it. I don't, I think Jordan will come through this class of superstars (Wade/James/Howard/Durant/Paul/Williams) as the GOAT. But Howard has all the tools to be one of the greatest of all time, and he seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders too.

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PO3 I agree with your assessment of Howard but if not Shaq who is the greatest Center of all time? You might have meant GOAT overall so I apologize if you do think Shaq is the best center and you were just saying Jordan is better, then I do agree, Jordan is the best I know that, the book was just saying if you could make an argument. But as far as Centers I can't find any stats that are way better than Shaq's and any argument against the talent he played against or his amount of winning. The only Center with better stats is Wilt. The only Center that won more was Russell. Who then? Oh not to mention they created Zone defenses to stop him, the first time the game had changed to stop a player since Wilt, wow, who else could there be? And please don't say he had no moves and just barrelled into everyone, that is an old timers argument who don't understand his amazing footwork, athletecism, and hands that he showed throughout his career. You could argue he could have rebounded more during his games, but his rebounding was pretty good anyway and during the playoffs he always dominated both ends of the floor. If he rebounded more he would have outlandish numbers. Look at his playoff numbers, they go up, Wilt's go down.

I think a lot of people looked at Shaq as a bully but he was going up against the Best Centers of all time and some other big solid ones as well (Longley, Sabonis) I just think that when we look back we will miss the fact that we got to see the 2 most dominating players in the NBA back to back and even somewhat against each other. Now Lebron and maybe Howard come along to give us what could be the greatest 4 of all time, back to back to back to back.

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I have Shaq as the 2nd best player of all time on my alltime's great list...and there certainly isn't a center at the #1 spot. :laugh:

Hakeem was better then Shaq...

Had every post move and even invented some moves.

Clutch playoff performer.

As good as he was offensively, he was even better defensively.

Let's look at some of his accolades...

*Only player in NBA history to have won MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year awards in the same season (1994).

*One of the 4 players in NBA history to have ever recorded a quadruple-double.

*Olajuwon also won the rebounding and blocked shots titles in 1989-90, becoming the third player ever (after Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Walton) to lead the league in both categories during the same season.

*All-time leader in blocked shots.

*Olajuwon is also in the top ten in blocks, scoring, rebounding, and STEALS. He is the only player in NBA history placed in the top ten for all four categories.


*All-time NBA Playoffs leader in total blocks with 472 and blocks per game with 3.3 per game

*Olajuwon ranks 7th all-time in STEALS and is the highest ranked center.

*In 1989, Olajuwon had 282 blocks and 218 steals, becoming the only NBA player to record over 200 blocks and 200 steals in a season

Come on, not only could he block you, but he had amazingly agile hands that he would steal the ball from you too! When do you ever hear about a center stealing the ball?

dougthonus wrote:

Well P03 and I were discussing whether he'd be a top 5 center of all time or not, so I would suspect pretty seriously.

I was watching Game 6 last night with Jonathan Givony (DX), and asked him the same thing, and he thought he'd definitely rank above Hakeem before he was done. I think that's dicier, but I'm the king of disrespecting Bill Russell, so I said he'd easily pass Russell.

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Above Hakeem? You're kidding me right?! He has a long long ways to go to get even close to reaching the level of Hakeems play. I think you've forgotten how great Hakeem was.

I rank him only below Kareem as the best center of all time, followed by Shaq, Wilt and Russell.

Hakeem was not only a fantastic offensive player with a trillion moves, but he was one of the/or the best defensive big men of all time. I mean, he was such an amazing center with how agile and versatile he was as a player. He was truly amazing to watch in his prime.

I realize that Dwight is still young, and he has plenty of time to improve his game, but it's like saying that Rose can surpass Isiah Thomas, it's just way too early to project at this point.

Hakeem Olujawon was a great talent, but Shaq's body allowed him to be more dominant imo. Hakeem won two titles, when Jordan was a little rusty. His team was only able to get out of the West three times, winning two out of three finals.

Shaq on the otherhand was just great. Got the Magic to the Finals early in his career. Won three straight championships with the Lakers where they were just dominant. They just stomped their competition. Went to the Finals again in 2004 with the Lakers. That team dominated the West, and then got knocked out by the Pistons, with Malone injured. 2006, went to the Finals again, with Wade, and won the championship.

Shaq imo, has been able to strike panic in another team more so than any other big man to play the game. Hakeem is great, but Shaq was just way more dominant.

I think the fact that Shaq has managed to put in something close to a full season less than half the years he's been in the league is a big black mark against his name when comparing him to other players. Being the "most dominant ever" or whatever he wants to call himself is useless if he's sitting on the bench.

??? ?????? wrote:

Hakeem Olujawon was a great talent, but Shaq's body allowed him to be more dominant imo. Hakeem won two titles, when Jordan was a little rusty. His team was only able to get out of the West three times, winning two out of three finals.

Shaq on the otherhand was just great. Got the Magic to the Finals early in his career. Won three straight championships with the Lakers where they were just dominant. They just stomped their competition. Went to the Finals again in 2004 with the Lakers. That team dominated the West, and then got knocked out by the Pistons, with Malone injured. 2006, went to the Finals again, with Wade, and won the championship.

Shaq imo, has been able to strike panic in another team more so than any other big man to play the game. Hakeem is great, but Shaq was just way more dominant.

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Though I don't entirely disagree, I still have to disagree somewhat.

I honestly believe that though our Bulls with Jordan would have still beat the Rockets if they had ever met in the Finals, but I think the Rockets would have been the worst match up possible for the Bulls, and I feel lucky that they never had to face them. That being said, sure the Rockets didn't win because Jordan went on his delusional baseball tour, you still can't diminish the fact that he won back to back titles, I don't think it's fair to say to lessen that achievement just because Jordan wasn't there for 2 season.

Hakeem got the Rockets to the Finals his rookie season. He was a much better defensive player, possibly the great defensive center in the history of the league. He was also a much more reliable player down the stretch of games, where as with Shaq he was often times a liability more than a threat because he was such a horrible free throw shooter.

Don't get me wrong, Shaq was a lot more imposing just because of his sheer size and strength, but he never used that advantage as much as he could on the defensive end. The longer he was in the league, the less effort he put on the defensive end and relied strictly on his offense to be dominate. Hakeem on the other hand could dominate on the offensive end, but at the same time he could be dominate on the defensive end also.

It's almost like comparing Jordan and LeBron - Lebron is just scary on the offensive end, imposing with his physical play but he doesn't have that same affect on the game on the defensive end, whereas Jordan was just as much a threat on the defensive end just as he was on the offensive end. It doesn't mean that Lebron isn't a beast, he is, but until he becomes a better defensive player, he'll never surpass Jordan as the greatest basketball player ever.

That being said, I think Shaq is somewhat under-rated just because he was gifted with such extraordinary physical body and strength, that his peers and everyone else expected him to be dominate, but that being said I think he could have exerted more of his play on the defensive end as well, and because he didn't I don't think he'll ever be considered the best center of all time. But that's just me, I think to be great you have to be good a fantastic 2-way player.

RPK wrote:

Hakeem was better then Shaq...

Had every post move and even invented some moves.

Clutch playoff performer.

As good as he was offensively, he was even better defensively.

Let's look at some of his accolades...

*Only player in NBA history to have won MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year awards in the same season (1994).

*One of the 4 players in NBA history to have ever recorded a quadruple-double.

*Olajuwon also won the rebounding and blocked shots titles in 1989-90, becoming the third player ever (after Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Walton) to lead the league in both categories during the same season.

*All-time leader in blocked shots.

*Olajuwon is also in the top ten in blocks, scoring, rebounding, and STEALS. He is the only player in NBA history placed in the top ten for all four categories.


*All-time NBA Playoffs leader in total blocks with 472 and blocks per game with 3.3 per game

*Olajuwon ranks 7th all-time in STEALS and is the highest ranked center.

*In 1989, Olajuwon had 282 blocks and 218 steals, becoming the only NBA player to record over 200 blocks and 200 steals in a season

Come on, not only could he block you, but he had amazingly agile hands that he would steal the ball from you too! When do you ever hear about a center stealing the ball?

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The MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY thing is cool but that just proves that the writers got it right for once. Jordan could have won all three in one year, Shaq was always underrated as a defender so he never got a DPOY but IMO should have. So that could have very easily have coincided in one year for other players as well. To me the MVP should have won all of those awards most of the time, he is the best player, just shows the people voting are stupid.

Ok total stats are just because he played so long, and Shaq is not done yet so we can't do total stats. So you can give us blocks and steals that Olajuwon was better at. Shaq had the most altered shots by his body that I have ever seen. No one even came into the paint and I have always felt that kept his blocks stats down. Ok so Shaq was too big to steal as many as Hakeem.

Lets take there head to head matchup when Shaq was a 3rd year player on the biggest stage of the finals. I know Hakeem hit the big shots but his team was better and the Magic were young and I think overwhelmed after the Nick Anderson collapse, it would have been closer if he makes just one free throw, the Magic get game 1 and it could have been totally different.

Hakeem: 32.8ppg 11.5rpg 5.5apg 2spg 2bpg 48%fg 69%ft

(3rd yr)Shaq: 28ppg 12.5rpg 6.3apg .3spg 2.5bpg*** 59%fg 57%ft

Ok so the great shot blocker got out shot blocked by a youngster who wasn't that great at blocking shots. Shaq beat him in Rebounding, Assists, Blocks. Much better FG% because dunks and little hooks are always better than fancy moves and jump shots that dazzle the eye but are actaully less effective. So what if he invented moves, to me every player does moves that the others can't do. Shaq's devestating dropstep or turnaround baby hook, Ewing's cross the foul line jumper, The Dream Shake, the Robinson Drive to the Hoop. The closer you shoot to the basket the more efficient you will be, so Shaq's dropstep I will take because he will be the closest to the basket.

Further more: Hakeem's supporting cast was much better, all of their starters scored more than every other starter on the Magic except Penny(25.5ppg).

Clyde Drexler: 21.5ppg 9.5rpg 6.8apg 1spg .3bpg
Robert Horry: 17.8ppg 10rpg 3.8apg 3spg 2.3bpg
Mario Elie : 16.3ppg 4.3rpg 3.3apg 2spg 0
Sam Cassell: 14.3ppg 3.oapg

Here are the Magic afer Penny: 25.5ppg 8apg 4.8rpg 1spg .8bpg 45%3pt

Horace Grant:13.3ppg 12rpg 1.5apg .5spg .5bpg
Brian Shaw: 12.5ppg 3.3rpg 3.3apg .5spg .3bpg 38%3pt 21mpg far less than NAnderson,Dscott
Nick Anderson: 12.3 8.5rpg 4.3apg 2spg .5bpg 32%3pt
Dennis Scott: 10.5ppg 3.5rpg 2.3apg 1spg .3bpg 24% I repeat 24% from their sharpshooter.

Your gonna tell me that 2 years later after Penny's knee destroyed Orlando, that Shaq wouldn't have killed a Hakeem at his prime.

Other than Grant and Anderson rebounding well Shaq's supporting crew is the reason they lost, not to mention Nick Anderson missing the 4 ft's in game 1.
Hakeem might have total stats, a quadruple double, and 200stls/blks ooh.
Robinson had a quadruple double, 72pts to win a scoring title, from Shaq on the last day of the season, and probably has similar stats to Hakeem in steals and blocks.

Is David Robinson better than Shaq too?

Shakes wrote:

I think the fact that Shaq has managed to put in something close to a full season less than half the years he's been in the league is a big black mark against his name when comparing him to other players. Being the "most dominant ever" or whatever he wants to call himself is useless if he's sitting on the bench.

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He was always healthy for the playoffs though, which makes it only a very light black mark. That's part of what I'm talking about with Shaq not having the discipline or temperament to become the GOAT.

Shaq had the attitude that it was all about the playoffs, and that he could take rest during the regular season, as long as he was ready for the playoffs. While Jordan on the otherhand, had the attitude to dominate the regular season, then go dominate the playoffs.

With Shaq's skill, body, and athleticism combination, he should have been the GOAT. He just didn't have the mentality to make it happen. In spite of all this, he was still able to win 4 championships and appear in 6 NBA Finals, win an MVP, and play effective to the age of 36, maybe further.

Btw, just got a strange idea. Do you think Shaq could jump ship after this season to San Antonio and pair up with Tim Duncan? That would be crazy to see those two in the same front court after some of those great Spurs vs. Lakers battles that we got to witness in the early 2000's. It'd make a great story if the two guys in their 30's, on the wrongside of their careers, were able to put it together an win a championship together (obviously Parker and Manu would have a big part to do with it too).

??? ?????? wrote:

Shakes wrote:

I think the fact that Shaq has managed to put in something close to a full season less than half the years he's been in the league is a big black mark against his name when comparing him to other players. Being the "most dominant ever" or whatever he wants to call himself is useless if he's sitting on the bench.

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He was always healthy for the playoffs though, which makes it only a very light black mark. That's part of what I'm talking about with Shaq not having the discipline or temperament to become the GOAT.

Shaq had the attitude that it was all about the playoffs, and that he could take rest during the regular season, as long as he was ready for the playoffs. While Jordan on the otherhand, had the attitude to dominate the regular season, then go dominate the playoffs.

With Shaq's skill, body, and athleticism combination, he should have been the GOAT. He just didn't have the mentality to make it happen. In spite of all this, he was still able to win 4 championships and appear in 6 NBA Finals, win an MVP, and play effective to the age of 36, maybe further.

Btw, just got a strange idea. Do you think Shaq could jump ship after this season to San Antonio and pair up with Tim Duncan? That would be crazy to see those two in the same front court after some of those great Spurs vs. Lakers battles that we got to witness in the early 2000's. It'd make a great story if the two guys in their 30's, on the wrongside of their careers, were able to put it together an win a championship together (obviously Parker and Manu would have a big part to do with it too).

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Yah PO3 I wouldn't be surprised at all if Shaq went to the Spurs, he said he would have gone to the Queens before he was traded to the Heat. I don't think he holds anything personal against anyone, they might not like him though, ha. The question would be if Duncan would want to play with Shaq?

Hendu0520 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Shakes wrote:

I think the fact that Shaq has managed to put in something close to a full season less than half the years he's been in the league is a big black mark against his name when comparing him to other players. Being the "most dominant ever" or whatever he wants to call himself is useless if he's sitting on the bench.

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He was always healthy for the playoffs though, which makes it only a very light black mark. That's part of what I'm talking about with Shaq not having the discipline or temperament to become the GOAT.

Shaq had the attitude that it was all about the playoffs, and that he could take rest during the regular season, as long as he was ready for the playoffs. While Jordan on the otherhand, had the attitude to dominate the regular season, then go dominate the playoffs.

With Shaq's skill, body, and athleticism combination, he should have been the GOAT. He just didn't have the mentality to make it happen. In spite of all this, he was still able to win 4 championships and appear in 6 NBA Finals, win an MVP, and play effective to the age of 36, maybe further.

Btw, just got a strange idea. Do you think Shaq could jump ship after this season to San Antonio and pair up with Tim Duncan? That would be crazy to see those two in the same front court after some of those great Spurs vs. Lakers battles that we got to witness in the early 2000's. It'd make a great story if the two guys in their 30's, on the wrongside of their careers, were able to put it together an win a championship together (obviously Parker and Manu would have a big part to do with it too).

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Yah PO3 I wouldn't be surprised at all if Shaq went to the Spurs, he said he would have gone to the Queens before he was traded to the Heat. I don't think he holds anything personal against anyone, they might not like him though, ha. The question would be if Duncan would want to play with Shaq?

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I think the Spurs are going to try to do whatever they can to try to win a championship. Getting some of these guys in their 30's, that can still play, on the MLE is probably a good plan.

If they could say sign Artest this summer for the MLE, followed by Shaq next summer, they'd have a pretty solid team. Lots of defense again.

Lets take there head to head matchup when Shaq was a rookie on the biggest stage of the finals. I know Hakeem hit the big shots but his team was better and the Magic were young and I think overwhelmed after the Nick Anderson collapse, it would have been closer if he makes just one free throw, the Magic get game 1 and it could have been totally different.

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Why do you call Shaq a rookie? Shaq was in his third season. He got his ass kicked and if he played Hakeem in his prime when Shaq was in his prime, he wouldnt have stopped Olajuwon, they were two different types of centers. Shaq had a much better supporting cast around him with every championship team than Olajuwon ever had around him.

Shaq is the greatest center ever...just ask him. I would still take Kareem, Olajuwon, and Moses over Shaq. People are totally sleep on Moses Malone.

houheffna wrote:

Lets take there head to head matchup when Shaq was a rookie on the biggest stage of the finals. I know Hakeem hit the big shots but his team was better and the Magic were young and I think overwhelmed after the Nick Anderson collapse, it would have been closer if he makes just one free throw, the Magic get game 1 and it could have been totally different.

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Why do you call Shaq a rookie? Shaq was in his third season. He got his ass kicked and if he played Hakeem in his prime when Shaq was in his prime, he wouldnt have stopped Olajuwon, they were two different types of centers. Shaq had a much better supporting cast around him with every championship team than Olajuwon ever had around him.

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Yah I changed that but by his 3rd year he was not his best yet. How did he get his assed kick did you read my post, sounds like you can't back that up. All you said that he invented shots, so does everyone ooh. And head to head it was a draw or Shaq outplayed him in his 3rd year. So how could you say that Shaq wouldn't have killed him if he was further developed?

And yest the Laker teams were better but that wasn't what we were talking about. And yah he just upped his averages by the 2000 run to numbers Hakeem couldn't dream about.

2000 Finals Shaq: 38ppg 16.7rpg 2.3apg 1spg 2.7bpg****
If the finals team wasn't good enough for you here are his playoff numbers in 2000:

Shaq: 30.7ppg 15.4rpg 3.1apg 2.9bpg

Hakeem's best playoff was '94 28ppg 11rpg 4.3apg 3.5bpg

Shaq wuold have horsed Hakeem no matter the talent. I took out your blocks argument because in a big game Shaq gets blocks and his body was a block. So I guess Hakeem gets steals wow big deal that doesn't hold a lot of weight that is one thing, Shaq was better in all categories. What about FG%, Scoring, Rebounding, Winning Chips. Oh that was Shaq's. You gave us Blocks and STeals for Hakeem, no go.

Also ss Kobe got better Shaq kept the same consistency and dominance in the playoffs. I guess you could like him to fit on your team but as far as one on one Shaq would destroy all comers.

Also Howard had 40pts 14 rebounds in the game 6 in Orlando and we were in awe. Shaq gave us those performances constantly in the Playoffs, even the years they didn't win. No one is even close as far as Centers.

Hendu0520 wrote:

2000 Finals Shaq: 38ppg 16.7rpg 2.3apg 1spg 2.7bpg****
If the finals team wasn't good enough for you here are his playoff numbers in 2000:

Shaq: 30.7ppg 15.4rpg 3.1apg 2.9bpg

Hakeem's best playoff was '94 28ppg 11rpg 4.3apg 3.5bpg

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Yes, great statistic, but who was Shaq matched up against in the 2000 playoffs? Rik Smits? I can't remember.

Who was Hakeem matched up against in the 94 playoffs, a Ewing in his prime?

Again, Shaq is probably like the point was trying to make earlier, Shaq is likely the most dominate offensive big man to ever live, but he wasn't as dominate as The Dream on the defensive end.

Both great players, and both one of the top centers of all time, and in the end it all comes down to personal preference. I think Hakeem is better but not by a large margin, I'd prefer a little less offensive whilst getting a lot more defense, but that's just me.

Shaq's career highs in rebounds and blocks came earlier in his career.

Olajuwon beat 3 centers from the top 50 Players of all time list to win his championships. Best center in the clutch I have ever seen. Quickest center, made players look foolish, remember the "Dream Shake"? outscored Shaquille in their head to head matchup in 1995. Hakeem could shoot 70% from the free throw line and was a superior defensive player. And I think it speaks volumes that very few have criticized the Rockets for picking Hakeem number 1 over Jordan. Most criticism is lumped on Portland for drafting Bowie over Jordan.

Olajuwon would definitely have caused a problem for the Bulls in the mid 1990s...that would have been an interesting matchup.

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Btw, just got a strange idea. Do you think Shaq could jump ship after this season to San Antonio and pair up with Tim Duncan? That would be crazy to see those two in the same front court after some of those great Spurs vs. Lakers battles that we got to witness in the early 2000's. It'd make a great story if the two guys in their 30's, on the wrongside of their careers, were able to put it together an win a championship together (obviously Parker and Manu would have a big part to do with it too).

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I'm not sure that's enough to win a championship if you add two years onto Shaq/Duncan/Manu. It'd certainly make for an interesting story though.