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CSF77

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More Advantages? The strike zone is already half the size of the one stated in the rule book.

I know I am probably in the minority, but I say, raise the mound.

If they make the strike zone reg size and raise the mound to put less strain on pitchers arms. Thus lowering injury rates. Then add a DH to the NL it would balance the game; some.

As a safety issue with these pitchers it would make sense to raise it. Injuries are more prevalent post mound lowering.
 

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More Advantages? The strike zone is already half the size of the one stated in the rule book.

I know I am probably in the minority, but I say, raise the mound.
The umpires have been trained more and more with the data available and are calling the high strike with regularity.
 
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Parade_Rain

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If they make the strike zone reg size and raise the mound to put less strain on pitchers arms. Thus lowering injury rates. Then add a DH to the NL it would balance the game; some.

As a safety issue with these pitchers it would make sense to raise it. Injuries are more prevalent post mound lowering.
Injuries are more prevalent post-mound-lowering for several reasons. More starting pitchers (fewer in-season starts), more off-season workouts (less rest) and also more games played in development years of amateurs. Much more mileage on pro pitchers before they even get there.
 

brett05

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The umpires have been trained more and more with the data available and are calling the high strike with regularity.

I have not watched more than one or two cub games, one or two non Chicago games, and all but a few Sox games and the high strike is not called at all

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Sure they could raise the strike zone, but they actually increased the zone below the knees almost 20 years ago, which does help the pitcher. If we're doing straight talk on baseball, the point is that expanding the zone up benefits the pitcher. Considering the number of pitchers throwing 95+ today is much greater than when the mound was lowered, raising the mound or the zone isn't the answer when we are looking at offensive production going down. In the post-steroid era, how does the league find offense? It's not as simple as adding a DH, imho. I do understand the importance of protecting arms. In order for baseball to remain on top, they are going to have to change the rules for the game to move more quickly and yet improve the offensive output. The HR derby in the mid-90's is what fans want to see, with an occasional pitcher's duel mixed in, imho. Lots of ways to improve the game.
 

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I'm curious as to how the apparent death of steroids changes the game. If we go back to the 80's speed was way more prevalent and power hitters weren't nearly as common. If we go back to 85 for example 13 players had 30 or more homers and only 5 had more than 35. These numbers are similar to what occurred last year. It could be quite interesting if things start to regress offensively to the levels of the 80's. We might see no hit middle infielders again and a much higher focus on speed.

I like this. The game has been so different for so long, people only remember fragments of the 1980s.

First of all, there's been a demographic shift and speed isn't in the game as a result. There isn't really much resembling the Vince Coleman's, the Rickey Hendersons, the Willie McGees, the Willie Wilsons, or the Tim Raines in the game today. And there were other guys not as prolific who had great speed like Gary Pettis. The only guys I can think of with real speed like that are Billy Hamilton and Tony Campana.

Another thing that's different is the number if strikeouts. Even though home runs have gone down, strike outs haven't. Maybe in the steroid era there were enough home runs being hit to justify the proliferation of strike outs. In the 80s it was more about productive outs and fewer strike outs.

Along those same lines, more players knew how to bunt. It's very apparent that it hasn't been taught. This is another aspect if the game that has been warped by the steroid era. During the 80s, middle infielders and many outfielders weren't expected to hit 20 home runs a season. So they were taught how to bunt. But this was far less prevalent during the steroid era when it became more about putting a guy who can hit more home runs at second base and short stop. But now because of saber metrics, bunting is still problematic. This is a function of attitudes being shaped by analyzing steroid era data. It was during the steroid era when saber metrics gained prominence. They were looking at data from a league where bunting was a lost skill. So the effectiveness of bunting is going to skew the analysis. It makes a difference if you try to correlate the effectiveness of bunting when you're looking at data at a time where people actually know how to bunt vs when they're awful at it because they're expected to hit home runs and strike out.

The more conventional way to build a team is defense up the middle and offense on the corners. This had been time tested but the steroid era warped this. What's interesting is how people view different players through the lens of the steroid era. For example, the bulk of Ozzie Smiths career was played before what us perceived to be the steroid era. He played at a time when defense was paramount for a shortstop and he was the best ever. The value of Ozzie Smith in the 80s was on the same level as having a bug time power hitter. Whitey Herzog articulated this when he said Ozzie smith saves a run a game, while other guys produce a run a game. This was after Ozzie Smirh got a big contract. But then take Omar Vizquel and Derek Jeter. Omar Vizquel is one if the best defensive shirt stops ever. In the 80s he would have been viewed differently. But because he played the bulk of his career in the steroid era, it's like people view him as great defense but no offense. In the 80s, people would be less apt to find fault with his offense. Then you have Jeter. He's the perfect example of a steroid era short stop. It's not that he was on steroids but him being a short stop is a reflection of how attitudes shifted from defense being paramount to trying to squeeze offense into every position on the field. In the 80s, Jeter probably wouldn't have even been a short stop. But because he played in the 90s during the steroid era, he's seen differently. Even people who don't try to laughably say he was good defensively will say his defense was good enough when you look at the offense he provided. Again, in the 80s, defense was paramount. The fact that Jeter was a Yankee also plays a major part in this. The media is so NY and Boston centric, that they've tailored their views around of certain things based on Jeter being a Yankee. But still, Omar Vizquel is kind of on the losing end if this.

In the 80s, if a guy was at 2nd with two outs, hitters would focus on getting that run home by hitting a single in most situations. Now, much of the time guys will still take massive swings.

Based on how the steroid era has so radically changed how the sport is both played and viewed, you'd think that every game in the 80s was 2-1 games. But that wasn't the case.
 

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Sure they could raise the strike zone, but they actually increased the zone below the knees almost 20 years ago, which does help the pitcher.

Lowered to what? I have not seen a pitch below the knees called a strike.

If we're doing straight talk on baseball, the point is that expanding the zone up benefits the pitcher.
Put the zone at where the rulle book says. Paraphrasing: Pits to pits (arms to knees)

Considering the number of pitchers throwing 95+ today is much greater than when the mound was lowered,

Are you sure about that? The fastest pitchers ever played in the 60's and 70's they say. Guys like McDowell and Ryan

raising the mound or the zone isn't the answer when we are looking at offensive production going down.
Both would control production. They have in the past, why do you think it wouldn't now?

In the post-steroid era, how does the league find offense? It's not as simple as adding a DH, imho.
It would add offense by just having a more competent hitter, but I don't think the issue for baseball is more offense. If it was, they'd do something with the balls or the bats.

I am not sure that the game needs any improvement really. The dollars keep going up, so I am not sure it's needed from a business standpoint
 

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Sure they could raise the strike zone, but they actually increased the zone below the knees almost 20 years ago, which does help the pitcher. If we're doing straight talk on baseball, the point is that expanding the zone up benefits the pitcher. Considering the number of pitchers throwing 95+ today is much greater than when the mound was lowered, raising the mound or the zone isn't the answer when we are looking at offensive production going down. In the post-steroid era, how does the league find offense? It's not as simple as adding a DH, imho. I do understand the importance of protecting arms. In order for baseball to remain on top, they are going to have to change the rules for the game to move more quickly and yet improve the offensive output. The HR derby in the mid-90's is what fans want to see, with an occasional pitcher's duel mixed in, imho. Lots of ways to improve the game.


The argument for raising the strike zone us really more about which part of the strike zones the umpires call strikes. First of all, it's easier for umpires to see high strikes . They're not obscured by the catcher being in front of them. So it's an easier call for the umpire to make correctly. Secondly, most batters are more apt to swing at high strikes because, similarly, it's easier for them to see as it's closer to their eye plane. Calling pitches at the knees is a lot of guess work so you have more mussed calls. It's kind of dumb that umpires are expected to ignore the strikes they can most easily see and are expected to calk strikes on pitches that require the most amount of guess work. You have people who are paid millions of dollars because of their ability to track a baseball visually, whose vantage point isn't obstructed by a catcher, taking pitches and being rung up by people, who don't make millions for their ability to track a baseball, that are obscured by a catcher and largely guessing in pitches at the knees.

The high strike is good for television. It's the easier pitch to see. So encouraging batters to swing at that pitches moves the game along better. These 4 hour games aren't good for the sport.
 

Parade_Rain

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Lowered to what? I have not seen a pitch below the knees called a strike.
Perhaps observing only 4 games this season doesn't provide you with enough information.


Put the zone at where the rulle book says. Paraphrasing: Pits to pits (arms to knees)
That isn't what the rulebook says. It's from the "midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants" to the "the bottom of the knees." "The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball." http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/strike_zone.jsp

Are you sure about that? The fastest pitchers ever played in the 60's and 70's they say. Guys like McDowell and Ryan
Yes. I'm sure of that. The average FB for pitchers in 2012 was 90.39 MPH for left handers and 92.08 MPH for righties according to texas leaguer. Here's another article-
tayler said:
For starters, the average pitcher simply throws harder today than pitchers in the past did. According to Fangraphs, in 2013, the average velocity for all fastballs thrown by pitchers with at least 10 innings recorded is 91.6 mph. That's a full two miles per hour faster than the average fastball in 2002, and its a number that's been steadily on the uptick since 2003. And that's just average fastball velocity for a wide spectrum of pitchers; the game's truly elite starters, like Harvey or Stephen Strasburg, will average 95 mphfor an entire game. Then there are flame-throwing relievers like Cincinnati's Aroldis Chapman, who averages 97.9 mph on his fastball and routinely gets it up to 103. Those are numbers with which Major League hitters didn't have to contend 10, 20 or 30 years ago, much less in the pre-World War II era. http://theweek.com/article/index/248245/how-major-league-baseball-became-a-pitchers-league

Both would control production. They have in the past, why do you think it wouldn't now?
Where did I say that it wouldn't control production? In order to increase offensive production, MLB lowered the mound in 1969 from 15" to 10". Offensive production is going down currently. The last thing that needs to happen is to change rules that favor the pitchers even more.

It would add offense by just having a more competent hitter, but I don't think the issue for baseball is more offense. If it was, they'd do something with the balls or the bats.
LOL. What would they do with the bats? Allow composite woods instead of a single piece? The players are already swinging toothpicks compared to the average bat swung in the 40's.

I am not sure that the game needs any improvement really. The dollars keep going up, so I am not sure it's needed from a business standpoint
The dollars will start to subside as all the soccer players who never played baseball become more prevalent and professional US soccer becomes a better product as opposed to being loaded with has beens and never was'. Baseball has been lost in many inner cities today due to economic factors. Even MLB recognizes this and has tried to regrow the sport/passion for the sport at the youth levels in such areas. The game needs significant improvement to garner attention.
 

Parade_Rain

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The argument for raising the strike zone us really more about which part of the strike zones the umpires call strikes. First of all, it's easier for umpires to see high strikes . They're not obscured by the catcher being in front of them. So it's an easier call for the umpire to make correctly. Secondly, most batters are more apt to swing at high strikes because, similarly, it's easier for them to see as it's closer to their eye plane. Calling pitches at the knees is a lot of guess work so you have more mussed calls. It's kind of dumb that umpires are expected to ignore the strikes they can most easily see and are expected to calk strikes on pitches that require the most amount of guess work. You have people who are paid millions of dollars because of their ability to track a baseball visually, whose vantage point isn't obstructed by a catcher, taking pitches and being rung up by people, who don't make millions for their ability to track a baseball, that are obscured by a catcher and largely guessing in pitches at the knees.

The high strike is good for television. It's the easier pitch to see. So encouraging batters to swing at that pitches moves the game along better. These 4 hour games aren't good for the sport.

http://www.baseballanalytics.org/baseball-analytics-blog/tag/umpires
 

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Hawthorne Effect... Not entirely relevant though .
 

brett05

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Perhaps observing only 4 games this season doesn't provide you with enough information.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, I've seen about 25 games or so this year.

That isn't what the rulebook says. It's from the "midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants" to the "the bottom of the knees." "The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball." http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/strike_zone.jsp

I've never heard anyone say top of the shoulders. Do you have a link to the actual rule? I'd be interested in reading it.

Yes. I'm sure of that. The average FB for pitchers in 2012 was 90.39 MPH for left handers and 92.08 MPH for righties according to texas leaguer. Here's another article-

That's in the last 30 years, aka the 80's. I was talking about the 60's and 70's. I understand it is all speculative since the data is not there, but folks still have those guys like McDowell and Ryan as the fastest ever on a consistent basis.

Where did I say that it wouldn't control production? In order to increase offensive production, MLB lowered the mound in 1969 from 15" to 10". Offensive production is going down currently. The last thing that needs to happen is to change rules that favor the pitchers even more.

I don't think the hitters need any more advantages at all. They have quite enough.

LOL. What would they do with the bats? Allow composite woods instead of a single piece? The players are already swinging toothpicks compared to the average bat swung in the 40's.

Modifications to make the ball come off the bat faster can be done. I'm not even an amature at the knowledge so I can't answer specifics.

The dollars will start to subside as all the soccer players who never played baseball become more prevalent and professional US soccer becomes a better product as opposed to being loaded with has beens and never was'. Baseball has been lost in many inner cities today due to economic factors. Even MLB recognizes this and has tried to regrow the sport/passion for the sport at the youth levels in such areas. The game needs significant improvement to garner attention.


Soccer is just not big in America and I don't think it ever will. Baseball has not suffered and has gone on to better times financially. Could it fall? Sure. But that's speculation at best.
 

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:clap:
even though your link didn't say it, Parade_rain you are right, midpoint between top of shoulders and top of pants. I did a quick measure of myself. That would be the armpits or the top of the lettering on a jersey.
 

Parade_Rain

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I've never heard anyone say top of the shoulders. Do you have a link to the actual rule? I'd be interested in reading it.
Brett, the rule doesn't say "top of the shoulders". The highest part of the zone is the midpoint between the "top of the shoulder" and top of the pants. Essentially, the top of the strike zone is about the bottom of the rib cage once the player takes his stride/gets into hitting position. I provided you the link on MLB and provided you the direct quotes as to what the strike zone is according to OBR.
I don't think the hitters need any more advantages at all. They have quite enough.
What advantage do they have especially considering the number of pitchers on staff the opposing team has?
Modifications to make the ball come off the bat faster can be done. I'm not even an amature at the knowledge so I can't answer specifics.
That's an interesting idea, but I think we would want better protection for the pitcher than what is currently available. I see they can now officially choose towear something inside their cap, but I would like addition protection for the ears, temples and face, just as I would like hitters to wear either a cage or something similar to the markwort c-flap.

Soccer is just not big in America and I don't think it ever will. Baseball has not suffered and has gone on to better times financially. Could it fall? Sure. But that's speculation at best.
Perhaps it is, however, if they don't change some things about the game, and provide a broader participation/appeal, I believe it is inevitable.

http://www.espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1740529/mls-catches-mlb-popularity-kids-says-espn-poll?cc=5901

For the first time in the 20-year history of the ESPN Sports Poll, Major League Soccer has caught up with Major League Baseball in one significant marker of popularity.
In the survey, both leagues can claim 18 percent of 12- to 17-year-olds as avid fans of their sport, the poll said.

The ESPN Sports Poll Annual Report, which is managed by Luker on Trends, interviews 1,500 Americans per month and tracks interest in 31 different sports. In 2012, the poll determined soccer was America's second-most popular sport for those aged 12-24, ahead of NBA, MLB and college football. Respondents are asked to rank their affinity for sports (how avid a fan they are), athletes, sponsorships and other trends.
 

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Brett, the rule doesn't say "top of the shoulders". The highest part of the zone is the midpoint between the "top of the shoulder" and top of the pants. Essentially, the top of the strike zone is about the bottom of the rib cage once the player takes his stride/gets into hitting position. I provided you the link on MLB and provided you the direct quotes as to what the strike zone is according to OBR.
What advantage do they have especially considering the number of pitchers on staff the opposing team has?
That's an interesting idea, but I think we would want better protection for the pitcher than what is currently available. I see they can now officially choose towear something inside their cap, but I would like addition protection for the ears, temples and face, just as I would like hitters to wear either a cage or something similar to the markwort c-flap.

Perhaps it is, however, if they don't change some things about the game, and provide a broader participation/appeal, I believe it is inevitable.

http://www.espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1740529/mls-catches-mlb-popularity-kids-says-espn-poll?cc=5901

It says top of the Shoulders from your link
1996 - The Strike Zone is expanded on the lower end, moving from the top of the knees to the bottom of the knees.

1988 - "The Strike Zone is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the top of the knees. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball."

That point is not bottom of the rib cage which is only three inches. It's armpits at least for me.

The hitters get lower mounds, a DH in the AL, a strike zone that is not called, but in turn called smaller.

I'm all for looking at safety.

Baseball in general appeals to an older audience. But for my part, I 've got a 10 and 7 that will tolerate baseball. They will not tolerate any other sport.
 

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It says top of the Shoulders from your link


That point is not bottom of the rib cage which is only three inches. It's armpits at least for me.

The hitters get lower mounds, a DH in the AL, a strike zone that is not called, but in turn called smaller.

I'm all for looking at safety.

Baseball in general appeals to an older audience. But for my part, I 've got a 10 and 7 that will tolerate baseball. They will not tolerate any other sport.

Not trying to kill the thread, but if they raise zone from top of the head to the top of the toe, and widen the zone by one foot both ways, the Cubs would have a really good staff. :lol:
 

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Perhaps it is, however, if they don't change some things about the game, and provide a broader participation/appeal, I believe it is inevitable.

http://www.espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1740529/mls-catches-mlb-popularity-kids-says-espn-poll?cc=5901

it absolutely is inevitable that soccer is going to be leaps and bounds ahead of both american football and baseball, probably in our lifetimes. mls attendance is already something like 6th or 7th in the world. and average attendance is above both the nba and nhl.
 

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It wasn't just steroids though. It was personal trainers and nutritionists that IMO had more to do with the game becoming power driven.

For a long time, many people believed that lifting weights was bad for baseball because it would decrease your flexibility. This was a fairly prominent belief into the 80s. The problem is that there wasn't really an interim period between believing that lifting was bad for you and the steroid era. Without that interim period it's undiscerible how much of it was steroids vs weight lifting in general.
 

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It says top of the Shoulders from your link


That point is not bottom of the rib cage which is only three inches. It's armpits at least for me.
Brett05 - look at the important words before "top of the shoulders". It says "the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the..." Midpoint def.- "a point at or near the middle of, or equidistant from, both ends, as of a line". IOW, what's the middle point if you drew a line between the top of the shoulders and top of the pants (belt)? That's somwhere around the bottom of the ribcage. It isn't at the armpits.
 

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