With Samardzija's lack of run support, ...

2323 · May 11, 2014

...I'd like to see the local media start asking the position players, especially Rizzo and Castro if they feel any kind of responsibility for Samardzija having no wins. I saw a stat that this is the first time a starter has gone his first 8 starts without giving up more than three runs and not have any wins.

These guys are babied, protected, and they don't give a f*ck about teammates.

There should be accountability but it won't happen. The media saw what happened to Steve Stone when he was " too negative". And stuff like this is even more likely to happen now with all the losing.

beckdawg · May 11, 2014

What in particular are Rizzo and Castro supposed to do different? Rizzo is hitting .283/.399/.488. Castro is hitting .275/.324/.435. Are they supposed to up their average 25-50 points out of the blue? There's just not enough talent in the positional players. People can't just play better than their talent because a pitcher is getting the shaft.

MRubio52 · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
These guys are babied, protected, and they don't give a f*ck about teammates.

I think the second part of this thought is irresponsible speculation.

JosMin · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
...I'd like to see the local media start asking the position players, especially Rizzo and Castro if they feel any kind of responsibility for Samardzija having no wins. I saw a stat that this is the first time a starter has gone his first 8 starts without giving up more than three runs and not have any wins.

These guys are babied, protected, and they don't give a f*ck about teammates.

There should be accountability but it won't happen. The media saw what happened to Steve Stone when he was " too negative". And stuff like this is even more likely to happen now with all the losing.

Castro, Rizzo and Bonifacio have all be doing their jobs. They're producing. Their numbers are right where they should be. They are getting zero production from second base and Renteria's instance on "playing the averages" is preventing Olt and Lake from developing lineup continuity. If the ceiling of this team this year was 70 wins, why aren't they giving these two an opportunity everyday? If the whole point of the rebuild is prospect development, then supplementing the existing parts with free agents, then this is a prime opportunity to figure out what these guys have. Neither Bryant or Baez will have any kind of impact this year, and the only AAA guys I see getting a shot before September are Alcantara, Watkins, and Szczur. Barney's slight defensive regression and complete ineptitude at the plate have rendered him a non-factor. After Super 2s expire, Alcantara and/or Watkins absolutely need a shot. And Szczur offers enough defensively and on the basepaths to be valuable as a d-replacement or pinch runner.

I wasn't a fan of the Renteria signing when it happened (partial to Dave Martinez or Brad Ausmus) and with what I've seen so far, I've agreed with little that he's had control over.

2323 · May 11, 2014

beckdawg said:
What in particular are Rizzo and Castro supposed to do different? Rizzo is hitting .283/.399/.488. Castro is hitting .275/.324/.435. Are they supposed to up their average 25-50 points out of the blue? There's just not enough talent in the positional players. People can't just play better than their talent because a pitcher is getting the shaft.

The excuse making for these guys is epic. Major League Baseball goes back to, what, the 1870s? And this is the first time this has happened? That fact alone shows it's unlikely this is to happen, given that there have been other bad teams in the history of baseball. But Castro and Rizzo are middle of the order guys on a major league team. They should be beyond the prospect label at this point. If Shark gets anything from either of these guys, he has at least one win most likely. Also keep in mind that Cashner was traded for Rizzo while Sveum was fired because Castro didn't hit when Sveum was the mgr. Two people have been supplanted for these guys. It's time for them to s*it or get off the pot.

JosMin · May 11, 2014

MRubio52 said:
I think the second part of this thought is irresponsible speculation.

Yes, it is.

2323 · May 11, 2014

JosMin said:
Castro, Rizzo and Bonifacio have all be doing their jobs. They're producing. Their numbers are right where they should be. They are getting zero production from second base and Renteria's instance on "playing the averages" is preventing Olt and Lake from developing lineup continuity. If the ceiling of this team this year was 70 wins, why aren't they giving these two an opportunity everyday? If the whole point of the rebuild is prospect development, then supplementing the existing parts with free agents, then this is a prime opportunity to figure out what these guys have. Neither Bryant or Baez will have any kind of impact this year, and the only AAA guys I see getting a shot before September are Alcantara, Watkins, and Szczur. Barney's slight defensive regression and complete ineptitude at the plate have rendered him a non-factor. After Super 2s expire, Alcantara and/or Watkins absolutely need a shot. And Szczur offers enough defensively and on the basepaths to be valuable as a d-replacement or pinch runner.

I wasn't a fan of the Renteria signing when it happened (partial to Dave Martinez or Brad Ausmus) and with what I've seen so far, I've agreed with little that he's had control over.

Ok, so they're just not delivering when their #1 starter is pitching? GTFO! Stop being an apologist for paper tigers. Because if get can't hit the other teams #1 or #2, that's what they are.

JosMin · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
The excuse making for these guys is epic. Major League Baseball goes back to, what, the 1870s? And this is the first time this has happened? That fact alone shows it's unlikely this is to happen, given that there have been other bad teams in the history of baseball. But Castro and Rizzo are middle of the order guys on a major league team. They should be beyond the prospect label at this point. If Shark gets anything from either of these guys, he has at least one win most likely. Also keep in mind that Cashner was traded for Rizzo while Sveum was fired because Castro didn't hit when Sveum was the mgr. Two people have been supplanted for these guys. It's time for them to s*it or get off the pot.

To use your train of thought, they both are shitting. They've been two of the three best offensive players in the lineup (Bonifacio being the other). The other 5 guys are who you need to be worrying about.

MRubio52 · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
The excuse making for these guys is epic. Major League Baseball goes back to, what, the 1870s? And this is the first time this has happened? That fact alone shows it's unlikely this is to happen, given that there have been other bad teams in the history of baseball. But Castro and Rizzo are middle of the order guys on a major league team. They should be beyond the prospect label at this point. If Shark gets anything from either of these guys, he has at least one win most likely. Also keep in mind that Cashner was traded for Rizzo while Sveum was fired because Castro didn't hit when Sveum was the mgr. Two people have been supplanted for these guys. It's time for them to s*it or get off the pot.

Jason Hammel is 4-1 on this team, does that mean he's a superlative teammate whereas Shark is an asshole who doesn't inspire his teammates to play hard for him?

Of course not, and drawing out large conclusions about makeup on guys because of a historical oddity that's happening to your home team just does not make sense.

2323 · May 11, 2014

MRubio52 said:
I think the second part of this thought is irresponsible speculation.

Sveum losing his job because Castro wasn't professional enough to produce under him, is the definition of being coddled.

GTFO with your apologetic nonsense.

JosMin · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
Ok, so they're just not delivering when their #1 starter is pitching? GTFO! Stop being an apologist for paper tigers. Because if get can't hit the other teams #1 or #2, that's what they are.

Did you not watch the game yesterday? Both guys got on base, ditto with Bonifacio. Slots 1-4 went 5-15. Rest of the lineup 1-14, 0-4 with guys in scoring position and one walk.

Again, watch the games before throwing those two under the bus.

MRubio52 · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
Sveum losing his job because Castro wasn't professional enough to produce under him, is the definition of being coddled.

GTFO with your apologetic nonsense.

Castro was asked to change his approach by the organization to become more patient and accepted that and tried to become a more patient hitter. He became less reactive and his stat line suffered as a result. The evidence of this is all over his statistical profile from last year. One of the more underrated aspects of his year this year is just how improved his defense has been thus far. Coaches and FO people have gone out of their way to mention how dedicated he has been to improving his defensive play this year and how hard he's worked all offseason.

I mean, if you want to cling to a loose narrative that fits what you're predetermined notions on the two players is, go right ahead, but please do understand who is spouting the nonsense here.

2323 · May 11, 2014

MRubio52 said:
Jason Hammel is 4-1 on this team, does that mean he's a superlative teammate whereas Shark is an asshole who doesn't inspire his teammates to play hard for him?

Of course not, and drawing out large conclusions about makeup on guys because of a historical oddity that's happening to your home team just does not make sense.

So you're saying Castro producing more under a different mgr is purely coincidental? Furthermore, you're willing to defend players who are only delivering against pitchers lower in the rotation and give them a pass.

Seriously, the excuse making really is epic here.

MRubio52 · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
So you're saying Castro producing more under a different mgr is purely coincidental?

Castro was asked to change his approach by the organization to become more patient and accepted that and tried to become a more patient hitter. He became less reactive and his stat line suffered as a result. The evidence of this is all over his statistical profile from last year. One of the more underrated aspects of his year this year is just how improved his defense has been thus far. Coaches and FO people have gone out of their way to mention how dedicated he has been to improving his defensive play this year and how hard he's worked all offseason.

I mean, if you want to cling to a loose narrative that fits what you're predetermined notions on the two players is, go right ahead, but please do understand who is spouting the nonsense here.

That's what I'm saying

2323 · May 11, 2014

JosMin said:
Did you not watch the game yesterday? Both guys got on base, ditto with Bonifacio. Slots 1-4 went 5-15. Rest of the lineup 1-14, 0-4 with guys in scoring position and one walk.

Again, watch the games before throwing those two under the bus.

Getting on base is the new standard for middle of the order hitters? Seriously? Based on this astonishing reasoning behind making this excuse, let's just throw slugging % out the window...you know since there's nothing distinguishing lead off hitters and middle of the order hitters according to you.

beckdawg · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
The excuse making for these guys is epic.

Who's making excuses? Rizzo and Castro are producing. As I said as well as others it's the rest of the team that's playing like shit. Rizzo is 4th in WAR for 1B. Don't like WAR? He's 4th in the majors in on base for first basemen. If you think Rizzo is playing poorly you are completely ignorant of what quality is. He's not Cabrera but you know what? There's only one of him in the league. As for Castro, he's 11th in WAR at SS and is similar in any stat you want to use.

If you want to bitch about Lake, Schierholtz, Barney, Baker, Olt....etc then sure have at it. But to pick out Castro and Rizzo who are actually playing well is absurd. You either have no idea where they stack up compared to other players or your impression of what they should be is so far beyond what their actual level is. Castro is an above average SS. He has never been a great SS. He probably will never be more than an above average SS. Rizzo is probably at best a 5-10 1B unless he really progresses. That's where those players rate right now. Expecting them to be better than that because they are the team "stars" is totally unrealistic.

This is why they suck
Nate Schierholtz -0.8 WAR .191/.233/.245
Ryan Sweeney -0.5 WAR .200/.262/.236
John Baker -0.4 WAR .069/.156/.069
Darwin Barney -0.3 WAR .127/.226/.182
Justin Ruggiano -0.1 WAR .229/.308/.343

and to a lessor extent
Ryan Kalish -0.1 WAR .268/.316/.352
Mike Olt 0.1 WAR .185/.264/.457
Junior Lake 0.2 WAR .242/.271/.407

Those 8 players account for 581 plate appearances of the cubs 1332 plate appearances. Only one of them(Kalish) is hitting over .250. Only two of them(Kalish, Ruggiano) have an on base over .300. That's why they are shit. Roughly half their plate appearances have netted them hitters under .250/.300. That's replacement level or worse.

2323 · May 11, 2014

MRubio52 said:
That's what I'm saying

So he can't produce unless he's allowed to go back to swinging at bad pitches. Also, Starlings lack of production has been cited as a major reason for letting Sveum go. What you wrote, attributes Castros approach to an organizational directive, yet Sveum lost his job. Plus you're saying it's coincidental, then go onto cite a change in approach.

Sorry but there are so e massive holes in what you're pitting out there as an explanation.

2323 · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
Getting on base is the new standard for middle of the order hitters? Seriously? Based on this astonishing reasoning behind making this excuse, let's just throw slugging % out the window...you know since there's nothing distinguishing lead off hitters and middle of the order hitters according to you.

beckdawg said:
Who's making excuses? Rizzo and Castro are producing. As I said as well as others it's the rest of the team that's playing like shit. Rizzo is 4th in WAR for 1B. Don't like WAR? He's 4th in the majors in on base for first basemen. If you think Rizzo is playing poorly you are completely ignorant of what quality is. He's not Cabrera but you know what? There's only one of him in the league. As for Castro, he's 11th in WAR at SS and is similar in any stat you want to use.

If you want to bitch about Lake, Schierholtz, Barney, Baker, Olt....etc then sure have at it. But to pick out Castro and Rizzo who are actually playing well is absurd. You either have no idea where they stack up compared to other players or your impression of what they should be is so far beyond what their actual level is. Castro is an above average SS. He has never been a great SS. He probably will never be more than an above average SS. Rizzo is probably at best a 5-10 1B unless he really progresses. That's where those players rate right now. Expecting them to be better than that because they are the team "stars" is totally unrealistic.

This is why they suck
Nate Schierholtz -0.8 WAR .191/.233/.245
Ryan Sweeney -0.5 WAR .200/.262/.236
John Baker -0.4 WAR .069/.156/.069
Darwin Barney -0.3 WAR .127/.226/.182
Justin Ruggiano -0.1 WAR .229/.308/.343

and to a lessor extent
Ryan Kalish -0.1 WAR .268/.316/.352
Mike Olt 0.1 WAR .185/.264/.457
Junior Lake 0.2 WAR .242/.271/.407

Those 8 players account for 581 plate appearances of the cubs 1332 plate appearances. Only one of them(Kalish) is hitting over .250. Only two of them(Kalish, Ruggiano) have an on base over .300. That's why they are shit. Roughly half their plate appearances have netted them hitters under .250/.300. That's replacement level or worse.

I've addressed the bulk of this. Also, you're just working around the edges by putting WAR out there. It obviously has no relevance when it's Sharks turn to pitch (ie when the top of the rotation roles around).

What you're doing is exposing Rizzo as a paper tiger.

beckdawg · May 11, 2014

2323 said:
I've addressed the bulk of this.

Fine you want slugging? Rizzo is 9th for 1B and actually ahead of Cabrera(.488 vs .481). Castro is 8th for SS ahead of Hanley Ramirez(.435 to .427).

2323 · May 11, 2014

beckdawg said:
Fine you want slugging? Rizzo is 9th for 1B and actually ahead of Cabrera(.488 vs .481). Castro is 8th for SS ahead of Hanley Ramirez(.435 to .427).

That's great. But what's his slugging % in games that Shark pitches? That's the relevant issue. Stop talking around the edges of the issue at hand with a bunch of paper tiger stat lines.

Btw, earlier in this thread, someone said there was no talent in the lineup and you can't expect people to perform above there ability. The data you're throwing out there undermines the idea that Rizzo is being asked to over perform....that is, unless your willing to admit he has paper tiger numbers.

There's a lot of talking out of both sides if the mouth here.

With Samardzija's lack of run support, ...

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