Starlin Castro

TL1961

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A better position for Castro is 2B. And I'm basing this on his offense, not his defense.

That is a popular, yet flawed, way of thinking.

If - and I am saying IF - Baez is the better 2nd baseman defensively, and Castro is a good 3rd baseman defensively, your way of thinking says play Baez at 3rd and Castro at 2nd due to their OFFENSIVE numbers.

Bottom line is, if the two combine for X HR's, and a combined SLG % that we'd be happy with, by all means play them in the nest possible defensive alignment.
 

TL1961

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I'm not putting the guy in the HOF for pete's sake.

But for a little perspective......at the end of this season, at 24 years old, Castro will have over 850 career hits. 17 men have had more. Many of them in the HOF.

My point is not that he is the world's greatest hitter or that he is headed to Cooperstown. But I am simply asking for a little perspective before we assume everyone / anyone will automatically be better.
 

2323

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That is a popular, yet flawed, way of thinking.

If - and I am saying IF - Baez is the better 2nd baseman defensively, and Castro is a good 3rd baseman defensively, your way of thinking says play Baez at 3rd and Castro at 2nd due to their OFFENSIVE numbers.

Bottom line is, if the two combine for X HR's, and a combined SLG % that we'd be happy with, by all means play them in the nest possible defensive alignment.

It's not flawed at all. In theory, Baez's bat would make his true position 3-4-5. For that reason you'd want him at 3rd and not playing 2b where there's a greater likelihood of injury.
 

TL1961

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It's not flawed at all. In theory, Baez's bat would make his true position 3-4-5. For that reason you'd want him at 3rd and not playing 2b where there's a greater likelihood of injury.

Good grief!

Now we can't play the game for fear of injury?

That's ridiculous.
 

beckdawg

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I'm not putting the guy in the HOF for pete's sake.

But for a little perspective......at the end of this season, at 24 years old, Castro will have over 850 career hits. 17 men have had more. Many of them in the HOF.

My point is not that he is the world's greatest hitter or that he is headed to Cooperstown. But I am simply asking for a little perspective before we assume everyone / anyone will automatically be better.

This stat kind of bugs me. You're not the first to make it so don't think I'm going after you. It's just poor context. The problem with it is that most players aren't up in the majors until 22 or 23. Take Bryant for example. He's arguably the best prospect in the game right now and may not see the majors until he's 23.5(turns 23 in jan). Does that mean Castro is a better hitter than Bryant? Of course not.

Ultimately, Castro has been a career .282/.322/.409 hitter. What that hit stat says about him is that he's been promoted early and he's been healthy. He has a grand total of 1 200 hit season. If you contrast him with Ichiro who's known as a great hitter, Ichiro started his career with 10 straight 200 hit seasons. That's a some what biased comparison because Ichiro was 27 when he got to the majors but I'm just using it to illustrate the point that what Castro is doing isn't unheard of. If you look at qualified players since 1950, out of 2255 players Castro ranks 761st in terms of OBP. If you look at average he's obviously better but you're still talking 189th. Even if you narrow that down to SS, he's 99th and 22nd respectively with Carlos Guillen one step ahead of him in average and Ryan Theriot four steps behind. Even if you prefer to throw around wOBA, Castro is 60th there out of SS's.

I don't want to give the impression that I hate Castro as some have taken my previous comments. My problem is people pretty liberally throw around the HOF term when it comes to Castro. I'm not saying you in particular TL but I've seen it mentioned in conversations. Castro is a decidedly good player. And I mean that as literally as I can. There's no area where you can say he's been decidedly great. He's stole some bases but not enough to be great there. He's hit some HRs but he's not A-Rod or Nomar there. He's hit for decent average but again, not the best. If Castro is to eventually make the HOF you're likely talking about longevity being his greatest asset.

People can and have argued that he's only 24 and just think what he'll be when he hits his prime of 27-32. The problem with that is his average has actually gotten worse from his early years going from .300 to .307 to .283 to .245 to .276 this year. His walk rate hasn't really improved so he's unlikely to ever see much improvement there(5.7% in 2010 vs 6.2% this year). He has added power to his game this year but at 20-25 HR this year I really don't see him adding more than that unless he gets some Bonds style roids. So, overall I feel like people see that he's 24 and think well most 24 year olds are just at the beginning of their talent. In reality, most 24 year olds have 1 maybe 2 seasons in the majors where as this is Castro's 5th. The adjustments players usually make Castro already has. For better or worse, the Castro we see today is likely the player he will be give or take at 27-32.

Overall, that's a pretty good player but I struggle to see him as a cornerstone piece. He's more of the secondary type pieces you need in order to be a good team. As an example, I see him as a similar level player to someone like Jason Varitek to use the Red Sox from the past decade as an example. When you think of those teams, you don't think Varitek. You think Manny, Ortiz, Schilling and Pedro. Those were the "cornerstone" guys. However, Varitek was a pretty damn good player and important to their success.
 

CSF77

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Probably right with bryant, as they may want to give Olt every opportunity to try and turn things around if not to keep him , for trade value.

I just find it hard to think if Bryant continues to tear it up into Aug., they cant justify leaving him down and not consider on bringing him up til May or so for super 2 status.

If im bryant that would piss me off and may affect my thinking when their looking to get a home town deal in an extension down the road.
Cubs just may have to bite the bullet with him

If they were giving him every chance than he would be playing full time. They tried that and he continued to suck with more AB's.

If they wanted to fix him they would have sent him down to get more AB's. This is the same thing with Lake. But no what is happening with both? Platooned with little care for development. Why? Because they are filler
 

CSF77

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I agree that Castro is a role player on a champ team. I believe it will come down to Castro or Russell at SS in the end.
 

JP Hochbaum

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People keep saying that Castro is not a Theo guy. But here is the thing, although he doesn't have the OBA that Theo guys usually have, he does have really high contact percentage, which ultimately is better than striking out (unless it is a DP).

Most of the high OBA guys strike out a ton, and Starlin will have that advantage over them because of his contact ability, and he is actually in the process of doubling his walk rate this year if his current trend continues. So he may develop into a high walk low K rate guy, something that is incredibly rare.

And NO ONE is going to get traded, prospect wise, unless a team contacts them and sells their pitching farm to them (an ACE and possible future aces at min.). If that happens then anyone should be on board for a trade.
 

2323

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People keep saying that Castro is not a Theo guy. But here is the thing, although he doesn't have the OBA that Theo guys usually have, he does have really high contact percentage, which ultimately is better than striking out (unless it is a DP).

Most of the high OBA guys strike out a ton, and Starlin will have that advantage over them because of his contact ability, and he is actually in the process of doubling his walk rate this year if his current trend continues. So he may develop into a high walk low K rate guy, something that is incredibly rare.

And NO ONE is going to get traded, prospect wise, unless a team contacts them and sells their pitching farm to them (an ACE and possible future aces at min.). If that happens then anyone should be on board for a trade.

If you work counts, strike outs is a potential downside. But the idea is that the benefit of deep counts extends well beyond one at bat. And it needs to take place up and down the lineup to achieve maximum effect. This strategy has been done for ages. It easily pre dates Theos time in Boston. Everyone needs to be on the same program though.

You can't look at Castro in a vacuum where this us concerned. This is something that requires the collective. If you have one or two undisciplined renegades, it can quickly go to pot. A big part of it is the unrelenting impact on pitchers to be challenged.
 

SilenceS

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If you work counts, strike outs is a potential downside. But the idea is that the benefit of deep counts extends well beyond one at bat. And it needs to take place up and down the lineup to achieve maximum effect. This strategy has been done for ages. It easily pre dates Theos time in Boston. Everyone needs to be on the same program though.

You can't look at Castro in a vacuum where this us concerned. This is something that requires the collective. If you have one or two undisciplined renegades, it can quickly go to pot. A big part of it is the unrelenting impact on pitchers to be challenged.

Castro saw more pitches per at bat last year then any other time in his career. He had a career low walk rate.
 

2323

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Castro saw more pitches per at bat last year then any other time in his career. He had a career low walk rate.

Sorry but using Castro as his own bench mark, in the context of this discussion, doesn't work. And I really hope you're not trying to make a case for letting him swing at whatever.
 

SilenceS

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Sorry but using Castro as his own bench mark, in the context of this discussion, doesn't work. And I really hope you're not trying to make a case for letting him swing at whatever.

No, I am making the case that not ever player is a robot and certain ones do better different ways. Castro taken pitches was his main problem last year. He would take pitches just to take them. Castro has some of the best hand to eye coordination in the league. Let him be him. I am sorry but until someone pushes Castro off short then there really is no discussion.
 

2323

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No, I am making the case that not ever player is a robot and certain ones do better different ways. Castro taken pitches was his main problem last year. He would take pitches just to take them. Castro has some of the best hand to eye coordination in the league. Let him be him. I am sorry but until someone pushes Castro off short then there really is no discussion.

Sorry but some psychosis incurred because he has 2 strikes is kind of a dumb excuse to let him continue doing whatever. He's a part of a line up. He plays a team sport. At some point he needs to walk through the fire to eventually get his walks up. Coddling him isn't the way to go either. He's not THAT kind of a player. And those types of hitters usually don't melt down when they work counts anyway.
 

SilenceS

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Sorry but some psychosis incurred because he has 2 strikes is kind of a dumb excuse to let him continue doing whatever. He's a part of a line up. He plays a team sport. At some point he needs to walk through the fire to eventually get his walks up. Coddling him isn't the way to go either. He's not THAT kind of a player. And those types of hitters usually don't melt down when they work counts anyway.

What? The Cubs tried to change him. It didnt work. he went back to what he was doing before they tried to change. It has work and guess what. His walk rate has increased as well. So, what is your point here? It seems like you are just saying because he doesnt have a high walk rate he should be gone because he would poison the team.
 

2323

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What? The Cubs tried to change him. It didnt work. he went back to what he was doing before they tried to change. It has work and guess what. His walk rate has increased as well. So, what is your point here? It seems like you are just saying because he doesnt have a high walk rate he should be gone because he would poison the team.

A few posts ago I pointed out that you can't look at this in a vacuum. It's too myopic. Most of what you said here falls under that.

And to be honest with you, as you raise these issues, it makes it more and more obvious that Theo should look to trade him.
 

SilenceS

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A few posts ago I pointed out that you can't look at this in a vacuum. It's too myopic. Most of what you said here falls under that.

And to be honest with you, as you raise these issues, it makes it more and more obvious that Theo should look to trade him.

Lol yea, I am going to have to start ignoring you. I forgot you were the Nelson Cruz analogy as well.
 

2323

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Lol yea, I am going to have to start ignoring you. I forgot you were the Nelson Cruz analogy as well.

What's laughable is how you enumerate ways for why they should just let him do whatever but in the process of doing so, you unwittingly are listing reasons for why he doesn't fit in.
 

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