One interesting thing about defensive performance in preseason

Chicago Staleys · Aug 29, 2014

gallagher said:
If that is so, then this was a pretty good prank.

And I recall reading something about how we put our DBs in difficult situations to see what they can do. It makes a little sense for bubble players, but I really wish we put more effort into gameplanning and calling defensive plays for the starters.

A prank on who?

gallagher · Aug 29, 2014

botfly10 said:
In preseason? Why?

During scrimmage, you put your players in a position to fail and try to expose their weaknesses so you can avoid doing it during the regular season. Its an opportunity to learn about your players in live action that doesn't count against the record.

What good would gameplanning to hide weaknesses be? The point of gamplanning is to try and only put players in a position to succeed. You would be defeating the purpose of preseason.

The only point is that, as an anxious fan, I want to see what Tucker calls a good gameplan.

Hell, pretty much everyone is anxious because of last season - The defenders and coaching staff has to be feeling it. Confidence is a big deal in sports, imagine how great it would have felt to have been able to stop the Seahawks at least once.

Zion · Aug 29, 2014

Mongo_76 said:
You are the most uneducated person to ever post on here.

You are actually blaming the dline impotence on the db's...

You really have no idea how football is played, do you?

Not being mean.. You just don't know that it all starts up front...

are you seriously acting like coverage sacks aren't a thing?

It's a team effort it all ties into together. jeez

if recievers are sitting wide open yeah I'm pretty sure that contributes to why the QB isn't getting sacked

botfly10 · Aug 29, 2014

gallagher said:
The only point is that, as an anxious fan, I want to see what Tucker calls a good gameplan.

Hell, pretty much everyone is anxious because of last season - The defenders and coaching staff has to be feeling it. Confidence is a big deal in sports, imagine how great it would have felt to have been able to stop the Seahawks at least once.

Meh. Sucks as a fan to watch a game while all coaches are interested in is individual matchups. But the players know preseason is preseason.

rob923 · Aug 29, 2014

BaBaBlacksheep said:
Tucker is just waiting until next week to release the Kraken.

I think he's waiting until Week 15 of the regular season ... that's how tricky he is!

JErryAZuma · Aug 29, 2014

FUCKER will unleash the "actual" defense if we make the playoffs. Then we will be poised to run the table but until then it's on Cutler to score like an arena team first team to get a stop wins. I really hate having zero confidence in our D , like in years past 3rd and 5 or more was almost always a guarantee punt. Now 3rd and 9 I'm praying for a penalty or an offensive mistake more than a stop.

Did Lynch get in the game at all last night I didn't see mid 3rd to end

Nick80 · Aug 29, 2014

lol'd.

The whole thread.

Oh and lol.

Monsieur Tirets · Aug 29, 2014

JErryAZuma said:
FUCKER will unleash the "actual" defense if we make the playoffs. Then we will be poised to run the table but until then it's on Cutler to score like an arena team first team to get a stop wins. I really hate having zero confidence in our D , like in years past 3rd and 5 or more was almost always a guarantee punt. Now 3rd and 9 I'm praying for a penalty or an offensive mistake more than a stop.

Did Lynch get in the game at all last night I didn't see mid 3rd to end

A little near the end.

pseudonym · Aug 29, 2014

keep-calm-and-release-the-kraken-12%5B1%5D.png

dawags · Aug 29, 2014

Lynch got in with about 9 1/2 minutes left, had a couple nice runs then got stuffed alot.

Bearfanfromnewjersey · Aug 29, 2014

Mongo_76 said:
Lining up DLinemen in even tech's is a method to stop the run game.

An even tech implies a 2-gap D. This puts the onus on the LB's to stuff the rush and shoot gaps to get pressure ont he QB.

Tucker did it last year as well when you watch the All-22.

This isn't him holding back the D. This is him not being able to call a D.

Tucker is crap.

yep. the D line is being told to stack the Olineman up at the line while our LBers and CBs make the pressure. Id rather see the 46 defense.

Bearin' Down · Aug 29, 2014

Mongo_76 said:
Our starting Dline had 21 sacks last year(in 2013).

Our starting Dline had 29 sacks (in 2012) last year.

People who think we upgraded don't know stats or football.

This is silly and just wrong. You're erroneous on multiple levels:

1) Sacks are just a part of what the d-line does. I would argue it's not even the most important function that they perform. Hell, it may not even be the second most important function. They need to maintain their gaps in the running game and pressure the qb. If they create a pressure, even if it doesn't result in a sack, the QB will be less likely to make a good decision. Sacks are rare, and should not be used as the sole indicator of d-line play.

2) You ignore that the Bears added significant depth not only at defensive end, but also at defensive tackle. Last year, our depth was Nate Collins. After that, we were screwed. While I get that your point is starting defensive lineman, you say "People who think we upgraded don't know stats or football." However, people who think we've upgraded also take into account that our depth far exceeds that of last year because those same people understand football enough to know that you need a good rotation of d-lineman. A point you seem to completely miss.

3) The stat itself is revisionist history. You're looking at the starting defensive line from 2012 (a year where our defense was insane). The 2013 defensive line was much much worse than the 2012 defensive line. Julius Peppers got old. Henry Melton was injured. Stephen Paea played injured. And Shea McClellin sucked. An accurate measure of whether or not our d-line has improved from last year, if you're basing it solely on sacks, would be to view it from 2013, since, you know, the defensive line actually played in 2013. Otherwise, you're twisting numbers to meet your hypothesis. Here you go:

Julius Peppers 7.0 sacks
Henry Melton 0.0
Stephen Paea 1.5
Shea McClellin 4.0

Jared Allen 11.5
Jeremiah Ratliff 1.5
Stephen Paea 1.5
Lamarr Houston 6.0

In other words, the accurate statistic would be the old Bears d-line from 2013 produced 12.5 sacks. The new Bears defensive line produced 20.5 sacks. That would be an upgrade, even in your completely skewed category.

In sum, you're arguing a fallacy. The defensive line is vastly improved.

didshereallysaythat · Aug 29, 2014

Bearin' Down said:
This is silly and just wrong. You're erroneous on multiple levels:

1) Sacks are just a part of what the d-line does. I would argue it's not even the most important function that they perform. Hell, it may not even be the second most important function. They need to maintain their gaps in the running game and pressure the qb. If they create a pressure, even if it doesn't result in a sack, the QB will be less likely to make a good decision. Sacks are rare, and should not be used as the sole indicator of d-line play.

2) You ignore that the Bears added significant depth not only at defensive end, but also at defensive tackle. Last year, our depth was Nate Collins. After that, we were screwed. While I get that your point is starting defensive lineman, you say "People who think we upgraded don't know stats or football." However, people who think we've upgraded as take into account that our depth far exceeds that of last year because those same people understand football enough to know that you need a good rotation of d-lineman. A point you seem to completely miss.

3) The stat itself is revisionist history. You're looking at the starting defensive line from 2012 (a year where our defense was insane). The 2013 defensive line was much much worse than the 2012 defensive line. Julius Peppers got old. Henry Melton was injured. Stephen Paea played injured. And Shea McClellin sucked. An accurate measure of whether or not our d-line has improved from last year, if you're basing it solely on sacks, would be to view it from 2013, since, you know, the defensive line actually played in 2013. Otherwise, you're twisting numbers to meet your hypothesis. Here you go:

Julius Peppers 7.0 sacks
Henry Melton 0.0
Stephen Paea 1.5
Shea McClellin 4.0

Jared Allen 11.5
Jeremiah Ratliff 1.5
Stephen Paea 1.5
Lamarr Houston 6.0

In other words, the accurate statistic would be the old Bears d-line from 2013 produced 12.5 sacks. The new Bears defensive line produced 20.5 sacks. That would be an upgrade, even in your completely skewed category.

In sum, you're arguing a fallacy. The defensive line is vastly improved.

You make great points. Also through in that the DLine last year was thin after the starters AND THE STARTERS ALL GOT INJURED (except Peppers who just got old). No one even knows what that unit would have done last year because they never played together. Is is improbable beyond belief that the injuries to the line will happen at the rate of last year. But even if they did, we are more prepared to handle it this year.

SmellyFoot · Aug 29, 2014

botfly10 said:
But in general, I don't see what is so weird about the idea of testing the limits of your players during scrimmage. How else are you supposed to learn their weaknesses without consequences?

Again, not saying that Tucker is gonna be good. Just sayin preseason is preseason.

The problem w/ that bot, is so many fans actually consider preseason games (emphasis on "games") to mean something more than a televised scrimmage vs another team. I completely agree with you in you calling this a scrimmage. Some coaching staffs take preseason opportunities to set up a winning culture and play them like they are for real. Others use them to refine things. Other do what you propose and place players in situations they aren't comfortable with to see how they react/learn from it. Since we don't know what Trestman's history is on how he uses these televised scrimmages it's hard to say how his staff approaches them.

Calabis · Aug 29, 2014

didshereallysaythat said:
I read an article that the Bears have been lining up the D line in even techniques this preseason for physicality purposes. But the said that in practice, they are running odd techniques because it is more effective for our players.

Tucker might be holding out our pash rush. True story.

I haven't seen one blitz in preseason on third down...but I also haven't seen every third down play...looks very vanilla

Pegger · Aug 29, 2014

Why stop at the preseason? My guess is that Tucker has been playing possum his entire coaching and playing career. He's really the most powerful defensive wizard ever and everything he's done to this point has been a way of hiding his talent.

SmellyFoot · Aug 29, 2014

Pegger said:
Why stop at the preseason? My guess is that Tucker has been playing possum his entire coaching and playing career. He's really the most powerful defensive wizard ever and everything he's done to this point has been a way of hiding his talent.

Pointing out that the preseason has different goals for different teams is exactly the same thing as saying Tucker has been holding back for his entire career in the NFL for the regular season.

Edit: I forgot to add the color

The Hawk · Aug 29, 2014

Bearin' Down said:
This is silly and just wrong. You're erroneous on multiple levels:

1) Sacks are just a part of what the d-line does. I would argue it's not even the most important function that they perform. Hell, it may not even be the second most important function. They need to maintain their gaps in the running game and pressure the qb. If they create a pressure, even if it doesn't result in a sack, the QB will be less likely to make a good decision. Sacks are rare, and should not be used as the sole indicator of d-line play.

2) You ignore that the Bears added significant depth not only at defensive end, but also at defensive tackle. Last year, our depth was Nate Collins. After that, we were screwed. While I get that your point is starting defensive lineman, you say "People who think we upgraded don't know stats or football." However, people who think we've upgraded also take into account that our depth far exceeds that of last year because those same people understand football enough to know that you need a good rotation of d-lineman. A point you seem to completely miss.

3) The stat itself is revisionist history. You're looking at the starting defensive line from 2012 (a year where our defense was insane). The 2013 defensive line was much much worse than the 2012 defensive line. Julius Peppers got old. Henry Melton was injured. Stephen Paea played injured. And Shea McClellin sucked. An accurate measure of whether or not our d-line has improved from last year, if you're basing it solely on sacks, would be to view it from 2013, since, you know, the defensive line actually played in 2013. Otherwise, you're twisting numbers to meet your hypothesis. Here you go:

Julius Peppers 7.0 sacks
Henry Melton 0.0
Stephen Paea 1.5
Shea McClellin 4.0

Jared Allen 11.5
Jeremiah Ratliff 1.5
Stephen Paea 1.5
Lamarr Houston 6.0

In other words, the accurate statistic would be the old Bears d-line from 2013 produced 12.5 sacks. The new Bears defensive line produced 20.5 sacks. That would be an upgrade, even in your completely skewed category.

In sum, you're arguing a fallacy. The defensive line is vastly improved.

Very true and a good post. I might add is to look at just two additions that the Bears made, namely Houston and Allen. Last year the opponent double-teamed Peppers a lot until he pretty much mailed things in. Last year, Houston was double-teamed a lot, probably more than Peppers. Same thing for Allen. Now put them on opposite sides of the line and who gets doubled, especially when you have Paea and Ratliffe out there. I see those guys being able to break up the blocking on the running gameThe doubters are going to be pleasantly surprised, I believe, with the defensive front's performance.

Mongo_76 · Aug 29, 2014

Bearin' Down said:
This is silly and just wrong. You're erroneous on multiple levels:

1) Sacks are just a part of what the d-line does. I would argue it's not even the most important function that they perform. Hell, it may not even be the second most important function. They need to maintain their gaps in the running game and pressure the qb. If they create a pressure, even if it doesn't result in a sack, the QB will be less likely to make a good decision. Sacks are rare, and should not be used as the sole indicator of d-line play.

2) You ignore that the Bears added significant depth not only at defensive end, but also at defensive tackle. Last year, our depth was Nate Collins. After that, we were screwed. While I get that your point is starting defensive lineman, you say "People who think we upgraded don't know stats or football." However, people who think we've upgraded also take into account that our depth far exceeds that of last year because those same people understand football enough to know that you need a good rotation of d-lineman. A point you seem to completely miss.

3) The stat itself is revisionist history. You're looking at the starting defensive line from 2012 (a year where our defense was insane). The 2013 defensive line was much much worse than the 2012 defensive line. Julius Peppers got old. Henry Melton was injured. Stephen Paea played injured. And Shea McClellin sucked. An accurate measure of whether or not our d-line has improved from last year, if you're basing it solely on sacks, would be to view it from 2013, since, you know, the defensive line actually played in 2013. Otherwise, you're twisting numbers to meet your hypothesis. Here you go:

Julius Peppers 7.0 sacks
Henry Melton 0.0
Stephen Paea 1.5
Shea McClellin 4.0

Jared Allen 11.5
Jeremiah Ratliff 1.5
Stephen Paea 1.5
Lamarr Houston 6.0

In other words, the accurate statistic would be the old Bears d-line from 2013 produced 12.5 sacks. The new Bears defensive line produced 20.5 sacks. That would be an upgrade, even in your completely skewed category.

In sum, you're arguing a fallacy. The defensive line is vastly improved.

Sorry, you're wrong. And here's why:

My point in using 2012 numbers is to highlight "why" their numbers went down.

Tucker has tekan over the Browns D, the Jags D, and now the Bears. On each of those teams, the Dline has produced CRAP. On each of those teams, he has instituted his version of a 4-3 D. In his version, he has his interior dline stay home and play read/react. He will even move them to the zero and two.

The common denominator in every crap Tucker Dline is... Tucker.

Tucker takes talented pass rushers and makes them worthless.

And Tucker is still our DC.

Mongo_76 · Aug 29, 2014

The Hawk said:
Very true and a good post. I might add is to look at just two additions that the Bears made, namely Houston and Allen. Last year the opponent double-teamed Peppers a lot until he pretty much mailed things in.

You mean the guy who received the highest grading of any player for the Bears in the Packers game? The guy who sacked Rodgers on a play that should have given us a fumble-6?

He didn't mail it in. In fact, when you look back at every defensive player who has played for Tucker, he had the second most sacks ever under him.

Last year, Houston was double-teamed a lot, probably more than Peppers. Same thing for Allen.

I'd like you to validate this.

I have game-rewind and I'm telling you that Houston was not double teamed as often as Peppers.

Now put them on opposite sides of the line and who gets doubled, especially when you have Paea and Ratliffe out there. I see those guys being able to break up the blocking on the running gameThe doubters are going to be pleasantly surprised, I believe, with the defensive front's performance.

That's what we all said last year when we put Wootton coming off a 7 sack season across from Peppers with Melton "fighting for a contract" in the middle.

One interesting thing about defensive performance in preseason

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