Why isn't anyone talking about Jimmy Butler

czman · Oct 19, 2014

RamiTheBullsFan said:
Show me one person that has said that Butler is a lock to be an All-Star next season. I haven't seen anyone say anything like that, seriously.

Butler is something to be excited about. He's playing smart on offense. Playing to your strengths is what great players do, and Butler has shown potential of being great. He's already a great defensive player (better than Deng in my opinion). All he needs is to keep doing what he's doing offensively. If he can be a threat to hit that mid-range jumper consistently, and keeps attacking, then he will get plenty of open three's that he is capable of making at a half-way acceptable sufficiency.

He plays inside first- outside second, and that's exactly what he needs to do.

Butler has already had plenty of open looks at 3 and he has a 309% from 3. That is awful in the current NBA. If I was putting together a a pie chart of Butler needs to make the Bulls a better team I would put improving 3 point shooting at 80% and off the bounce game at 20%. Him getting better at driving is not very useful for the Bulls team.

czman · Oct 19, 2014

RamiTheBullsFan said:
I'll preface this by saying I am NOT comparing Jimmy Butler with either of these guys.

Michael Jordan and Dwyane Wade are two of the greatest wing scorers in NBA history. Look how many three's they shot per-game in their primes.

Wade averaged less than 1 three-pt attempt per game in the year he won his first championship in 2006.

Jordan averaged less than 2 three-pt attempts per game over his career.

Neither were particular good three-point shooters but exceptional from mid-range and at getting to the rim.

Again- not comparing the players. Just the styles. Butler can be a very good offensive player without shooting lots of three's. All he needs to do is make them pay for leaving him wide open out there.

This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about what the NBA has evolved into and why it has evolved.

czman · Oct 19, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
If Jimmy can get himself to a point where he's only taking a few 3s a game, but consistently making 1 per game, that'd be a huge improvement. If he's knocking down his midrange jumpers consistently, he may be able to get himself to that point over the course of the season.

That is not going to be good enough anymore. Tony Allen was benched in the playoffs because he cannot shoot. Tablo is on his way out for not being able to shoot. I know Butler has more off the bounce game, but spacing the floor is far more important than it use to be.

Papa Wheelie · Oct 19, 2014

czman said:
20% from 3 this preseason. He is not going to be this effective in the regular season shooting that poorly from beyond the arc. The NBA is not what it was even 10 years ago. You have to be able to space the floor on the wings in the current NBA. I don't what Butler does off the bounce, if he shots ~30% from 3 he should not be starting on a team with championship aspirations.

The main reason the Bulls struggled in the playoffs least year was Butler was not able to space the floor and the Wizards just sunk into the paint. That is what will happen in the playoffs this year if Butler cannot shoot.

The excitement about Butler is a bit premature. For the Bulls wings that can space the floor is more important than showing you can get to the rim in preseason.

Yawn .....

clonetrooper264 · Oct 20, 2014

czman said:
That is not going to be good enough anymore. Tony Allen was benched in the playoffs because he cannot shoot. Tablo is on his way out for not being able to shoot. I know Butler has more off the bounce game, but spacing the floor is far more important than it use to be.

Well shoot...I guess we need to have 4 shooters and Rose on the floor at all times. :kermit:

Sorry over the top there. But I'm actually a little confused as to what you're referring to. Tony Allen averaged 33 minutes a night last season in the playoffs. That doesn't seem like benched to me. I suppose you may have a point about Sefolosha, but he also has no other offensive skills. Butler can at least get to the rim. I don't think we necessarily need everyone around Rose to be Ray Allen to have success. Imo, if Butler can show he can at least knock down an open 3 to keep the defense honest, that should be good enough since he hasn't shown any sort of consistency as a shooter yet. There's other ways to manufacture spacing than just having guys camp on the 3pt line waiting to spot up.

Cerebral · Oct 20, 2014

The reason i'm not all giddy about Butler is because his style reminds me a lot of Deng, and we went nowhere with Deng. Now, i'm not saying Deng is/was a bad player but that's essentially what Butler is the only difference is Butler is a bit more aggressive than Deng but they're Defense first, open shot second. And, I really think that's the player Butler is and will be until further notice.

Axl Rose · Oct 20, 2014

because we didnt want to jinx it

now look what you did...hes hurt and im putting them blame solely on you

RamiTheBullsFan · Oct 20, 2014

czman said:
This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about what the NBA has evolved into and why it has evolved.

You don't need every single player from PG to PF to be an above average three-point shooter to win a championship. And you also don't need to be a good three-point shooter to be classified as a good offensive player.

The Spurs just won the championship and Tony Parker was their starting PG averaging 1.2 3PA per game in the playoffs. The two years before that, The Heat also won the championship with Wade averaging 1.2 3PA per-game. The Thunder are a threat every year and Westbrook is not a good three-pt shooter either.

FirstTimer · Oct 20, 2014

Because Butler was lighting up Atlanta's scrubs.

The Hawk · Oct 20, 2014

I guess we will see. I still say that he should play small forward and that they get a good shooting guard. Someone has got to be a dependable outside shooter in the everyday starting line-up. Dunleavy? He should not be a starting player.

The Hawk · Oct 20, 2014

I absolutely hope that Butler has a break-out season at shooting guard and that Dunleavy improves also. What this means, though, is that two guys are being counted upon to pretty significantly up their game. Can they do it? I say that it is pretty doubtful. More importantly, though, is that it didn't have to be that wayif the front office did their job. I am excited about the season given that Rose is back and the addition of Gasol, Mirotic, and McDermott. But I do not think that this combination of players is a championship team.

Funky Diabetic · Oct 20, 2014

Cerebral said:
The reason i'm not all giddy about Butler is because his style reminds me a lot of Deng, and we went nowhere with Deng. Now, i'm not saying Deng is/was a bad player but that's essentially what Butler is the only difference is Butler is a bit more aggressive than Deng but they're Defense first, open shot second. And, I really think that's the player Butler is and will be until further notice.

I agree along with most that Butler is very similar to Deng in many ways. I haven't seen any mention but does anyone recall 4-5 years back when Deng refused to shoot 3's? He went almost a full season without taking a 3 but would easily knock down shots just within the line. He wasn't bad at he 3-ball and I remember wishing that he would take a step back and get that extra point.

If Jimmy takes a similar approach and gains confidence in his mid-range and long 2-pointers, then the sky is the limit.

While Deng did have Ben Gordon around, there wasn't much else. People like to talk shit about Hinrich on here but I don't see it. I think he's always been a solid shooter who doesn't play as aggressive as he should at times. You can always count on him to take a shot that makes sense. Sure, he was dancing on a rainbow last night against the Hornets but that kind of play is within his wheelhouse. We've all seen it before.

Beyond that, we now have Rose, Brooks, Dunleavy, McDermott, Mirotic, Gasol, and Snell(and Hinrich). It is not necessary for our starting 2-guard to be upper-echelon 3-point shooter when we have 8 other guys on the team that can legitimately fall within 35-40+ percent from behind the line.

Crystallas · Oct 20, 2014

Deng and Butler's style of play are very different.

Also, don't forget, Jimmy can handle the ball as well as some scrub PGs in this league. Deng still travels and dribbles the ball off his foot. Just because they have a similar shot selection, does not make them similar players. A lot of 2s and 3s in the NBA have the same shot selection, as it comes with the positions.

Scoot26 · Oct 20, 2014

Butler is a good third option for the Bulls. Deng was always best as the third option (2010-11 he was the 3rd option behind Rose and Boozer and probably had his most productive year). Hopefully Butler is behind Gasol for 3rd option, though we all know Gasol won't last much longer.

FirstTimer · Oct 20, 2014

Scoot26 said:
Butler is a good third option for the Bulls. Deng was always best as the third option (2010-11 he was the 3rd option behind Rose and Boozer and probably had his most productive year). Hopefully Butler is behind Gasol for 3rd option, though we all know Gasol won't last much longer.

Right now I think Buter is a 4th option guy. Depends how you view Noah though I suppose and how rotations come into play with guys like Mirotic and McBuckets. Is Butler a better option on offense than Dunleavy?

czman · Oct 20, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
Well shoot...I guess we need to have 4 shooters and Rose on the floor at all times.

Sorry over the top there. But I'm actually a little confused as to what you're referring to. Tony Allen averaged 33 minutes a night last season in the playoffs. That doesn't seem like benched to me. I suppose you may have a point about Sefolosha, but he also has no other offensive skills. Butler can at least get to the rim. I don't think we necessarily need everyone around Rose to be Ray Allen to have success. Imo, if Butler can show he can at least knock down an open 3 to keep the defense honest, that should be good enough since he hasn't shown any sort of consistency as a shooter yet. There's other ways to manufacture spacing than just having guys camp on the 3pt line waiting to spot up.

I was sloppy with my language. I should have stated Allen lost his starting spot to Lee in the playoffs. They played the same minutes, but that is more about Prince being useless as a SF on offense. Benched was the wrong thing to state.

Also I never stated the Bulls need 4 guys that can shoot the 3 at the same time with Rose. There is no reason to misrepresent what is typed. It does not foster discussion at all.

Crystallas · Oct 20, 2014

Butler is better than Dunleavy offensively at this point of their careers. Dunleavy has a better shot, but that's it. Noah is still pass and screen first.

Funny though, if McDermott keeps on progressing, therefore earning minutes. He could very well become the 2nd or 3rd option offensively, this season.

So yes, the argument can be made that Butler might wind up being further back, option-wise, than most people realize. Who knows what Niko will do, who knows if Pau will stay healthy. Taj came to camp out of shape(makes sense because he has feet issues), so who knows how reliable he will be offensively. All of this assumes positives on the other players, and suggesting that Butler himself doesn't improve. Butler could become that 2nd option too, but it's so close at this point. Too close to really know.

czman · Oct 20, 2014

RamiTheBullsFan said:
You don't need every single player from PG to PF to be an above average three-point shooter to win a championship. And you also don't need to be a good three-point shooter to be classified as a good offensive player.

The Spurs just won the championship and Tony Parker was their starting PG averaging 1.2 3PA per game in the playoffs. The two years before that, The Heat also won the championship with Wade averaging 1.2 3PA per-game. The Thunder are a threat every year and Westbrook is not a good three-pt shooter either.

I am positive I did not state the Bulls needed PG-PF to all be above average 3 point shooters.

You need the following in the current NBA:

Ball handler (Rose) Does not need to be a great 3 point shooter.
Pick man o-rebounder (Noah)
3 point shooter (Dunleavy and McDermott) I don't expect them to play at the same time in the playoffs
3 point shooter (????????)
17-19 foot shooter (Gasol and Gibson I guess)

I am sure someone will say the Bulls can use Mirotic at the 2nd 3 point shooter, But I don't expect him to get minutes over Noah/Gasol/Gibson down the stretch of playoff games.

If you look at the Heat and the Spurs they both filled those roles at a minimum. The Bulls need Butler to be able to shoot. 1/3 is not going to be good enough. Attempts is not the entire store. If no one respects his shooting teams won't run him off the line. That means when the ball rotates to him and he does not shoot the Bulls miss out on an open shot and the defense has time to reset.

It is not just about taking and making shots. It is about moving the defense and causing them to scramble. If the defense does not respect Butler he will be a liability on offense; especially when Noah is out there too.

The Bulls are too talented and play to hard to miss the playoffs. They are going to make the playoffs. The regular season is just for seeding. I am not going to get too excited about what anyone does in the regular season. Everything for me is filtered through the prism of winning in the playoffs. Right now I think the Bulls are missing that wing shooter to help space the floor. Butler getting to the rim now (in preseason) is not going to help the team win playoff games against solid team defenses in long series.

Scoot26 · Oct 20, 2014

FirstTimer said:
Right now I think Buter is a 4th option guy. Depends how you view Noah though I suppose and how rotations come into play with guys like Mirotic and McBuckets. Is Butler a better option on offense than Dunleavy?

I've never viewed Noah as much of an offensive option. The only designed play we'd really see him is a cut to the basket. I think overall Butler is better than Dunleavy. Butler regressed last season a lot, but I think part of that was he was asked to do more, and the Bulls lacked options unlike they had in 2012-13.

FirstTimer · Oct 20, 2014

Crystallas said:
Butler is better than Dunleavy offensively at this point of their careers.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Scoot26 said:
I've never viewed Noah as much of an offensive option. The only designed play we'd really see him is a cut to the basket. I think overall Butler is better than Dunleavy. Butler regressed last season a lot, but I think part of that was he was asked to do more, and the Bulls lacked options unlike they had in 2012-13.

I agree Butler might be better overall than Dunleavy because Butler is a high level defender but I'm talking strictly on the offensive end. Fair point on Noah. I never know how to figure him as an "option" in the offense.

Why isn't anyone talking about Jimmy Butler

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