Why isn't anyone talking about Jimmy Butler

czman

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I've never viewed Noah as much of an offensive option. The only designed play we'd really see him is a cut to the basket. I think overall Butler is better than Dunleavy. Butler regressed last season a lot, but I think part of that was he was asked to do more, and the Bulls lacked options unlike they had in 2012-13.

Why are people talking about options. This is not football where QB goes through their progressions. The NB is a dynamic game. The NBA does not have options. It has roles, spacing, and ball movement. It is an overly simplistic way to look at what is happening on the court.

Yes, some players take more shots and there is a hierarchy of shots taken, but what order a player falls in does not define an offense or fill the roles for an offense. Teams don't need a 1st/2nd/3rd option. They need roles to be filled.
 

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Why are people talking about options. This is not football where QB goes through their progressions. The NB is a dynamic game. The NBA does not have options. It has roles, spacing, and ball movement. It is an overly simplistic way to look at what is happening on the court.

Yes, some players take more shots and there is a hierarchy of shots taken, but what order a player falls in does not define an offense or fill the roles for an offense. Teams don't need a 1st/2nd/3rd option. They need roles to be filled.

Yes and no. I think what you're confusing here is the term "options" in dealing with just breaking up shots and scoring chances. In popular language what is being discussed here by "options" is simply talent as a scorer given typical NBA game conditions. Referring to the NBA game as a dynamic one is true however the dynamics work better when you have more talent and are able to do more as a player as a second "option" in an offense.
 

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Options are a part of all team sports. It refers to the choice the primary has to make.

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clonetrooper264

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I was sloppy with my language. I should have stated Allen lost his starting spot to Lee in the playoffs. They played the same minutes, but that is more about Prince being useless as a SF on offense. Benched was the wrong thing to state.

Also I never stated the Bulls need 4 guys that can shoot the 3 at the same time with Rose. There is no reason to misrepresent what is typed. It does not foster discussion at all.
I thought I had made it obvious that my 4 shooters comment was a joke, but sorry about the confusion there. Hyperbole and stuff...you definitely didn't make that your point.

Back to Butler though, what I'm getting at is that if he can show that he can make an open 3, whatever that means percentage wise or attempts wise, it will make the defender at least think about closing out on him. This doesn't mean at all the Butler has to magically turn into a 38% shooter from 3, just that he has to make the defense respect his outside shot, which is doable even at 34% if he's making all of his wide open jumpers. So basically, he just has to be able to make open 3s. If he can get the defense to react to him being open, I think that serves the purpose. I'm pretty sure Butler will take the open 3s if the defense doesn't rotate, he just has to show he can make them.
 

czman

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Yes and no. I think what you're confusing here is the term "options" in dealing with just breaking up shots and scoring chances. In popular language what is being discussed here by "options" is simply talent as a scorer given typical NBA game conditions. Referring to the NBA game as a dynamic one is true however the dynamics work better when you have more talent and are able to do more as a player as a second "option" in an offense.

I am not sure you read what I typed, but filing roles means have specific levels of talent is certain areas. Since we are talking about offense we obviously talking about offensive skill set.

1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th option is an antiquated way of looking at the current NBA. We can assume the first option is the primary ball handler, after that is about filling roles and spots on the floor. During a game the primary ball handler will change. Not even Tibs plays guys 48 minutes every game. You still have to rill those roles. Having players who can fill multiple roles makes it easier. At a minimum you have to fill those roles.

Side Note*****I am talking about being a championship quality team. A vast majority of teams can't fill those roles on offense or still subscribe to the antiquate idea that there are 1st/2nd/3rd options and they will not win a championship. Championship basketball is not about a bunch of people acting singularly on the court. It is about a group of people acting as a unit to help each other by spacing the floor and moving the ball.
 

czman

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I thought I had made it obvious that my 4 shooters comment was a joke, but sorry about the confusion there. Hyperbole and stuff...you definitely didn't make that your point.

Back to Butler though, what I'm getting at is that if he can show that he can make an open 3, whatever that means percentage wise or attempts wise, it will make the defender at least think about closing out on him. This doesn't mean at all the Butler has to magically turn into a 38% shooter from 3, just that he has to make the defense respect his outside shot, which is doable even at 34% if he's making all of his wide open jumpers. So basically, he just has to be able to make open 3s. If he can get the defense to react to him being open, I think that serves the purpose. I'm pretty sure Butler will take the open 3s if the defense doesn't rotate, he just has to show he can make them.

I guess I don't see him as a player who can make open 3s. The Wizards did not guard him and he did not make them pay. He is not lighting it up from 3 now. I hope you are right because I think Butler's ability to hit open 3's will be critical in the playoffs. I would like to see it in the regular season for a bit, but if he gets hot in the playoffs that is fine too.
 

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I am not sure you read what I typed, but filing roles means have specific levels of talent is certain areas. Since we are talking about offense we obviously talking about offensive skill set.

1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th option is an antiquated way of looking at the current NBA. We can assume the first option is the primary ball handler, after that is about filling roles and spots on the floor. During a game the primary ball handler will change. Not even Tibs plays guys 48 minutes every game. You still have to rill those roles. Having players who can fill multiple roles makes it easier. At a minimum you have to fill those roles.

Side Note*****I am talking about being a championship quality team. A vast majority of teams can't fill those roles on offense or still subscribe to the antiquate idea that there are 1st/2nd/3rd options and they will not win a championship. Championship basketball is not about a bunch of people acting singularly on the court. It is about a group of people acting as a unit to help each other by spacing the floor and moving the ball.

Again, I think you have no idea what we are talking about when we are referring to "options".
 

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I guess I don't see him as a player who can make open 3s. The Wizards did not guard him and he did not make them pay. He is not lighting it up from 3 now. I hope you are right because I think Butler's ability to hit open 3's will be critical in the playoffs. I would like to see it in the regular season for a bit, but if he gets hot in the playoffs that is fine too.
I think he can make some open 3s right now, but he's not consistent yet. My point was if he could get himself to the point where he was knocking down more open 3s, that's where that effect would start to factor in. If you were going to nitpick a weak point of the Bulls' perimeter offense though, Butler would be it in terms of shooting. I think there are ways to get around that, but I do agree that Butler improving his shooting would be a huge benefit for the offense.
 

czman

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Again, I think you have no idea what we are talking about when we are referring to "options".

I understand. I used to think that way too. I understand that the game has changed and why it has changed. I think if you believe you understand basketball, you take a few minutes to think about what I have typed and try to understand instead of just immediately dismissing it.

At any given time there is only one ball and only one player has it. On that given play that person is the primary ball handler and that person is the 1st option. A team can run a play, like the Bulls do. Inside that play the Bulls can have McDermott run off screens and he can receive the pass and then he can shoot or pass to the screener. We can call those options, and they are options.

It is also piss-poor offense. If that does not work the play breaks down and then what? At some point in the playoffs a team is going to take away your plays. 7 game series are long and teams will know your plays as well as you know them. There comes a point when players just have to play basketball. That is where championships are won.

I don't like using stories to relay information over the internet, but I think this time it is warranted. Many years ago I was at a practice. The team was practicing an offensive play. Now the defense knew what the offense was doing and jumping passes and such. Well the coach pipes up and says make the back cut. Don't be a robot and just run the play. At some point you have to just play basketball. The coach is right. Teams cannot be a slave to a play. They need the ability to just play basketball.

That is why the Bulls struggle in the last ~5 minutes of games. They do not have the pieces to just play basketball. It is also why the Spurs don't.

Inherently, there are two types of offenses. There are plays (What Tibs does). There is floor spaces to fill (the triangle/what the Spurs do). Running plays is no longer the way to win a championship. It used to be. That is when options worked. It is not the way anymore. There is so much film, game study, data, that running plays has diminishing returns. Now you have to be able to just play basketball. You can start out with a play, but it will break down and when that happens it is time to just play basketball. When that happens you need to fill the roles. That is where you win rings. You are not going to win rings by just running set plays.
 

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Blah blah blah blah

You've have literally typed a lot of nothing. You don't understand the conversation that's occurring. You have a faulty assumption of the way people here are talking about offense. Please cease and desist from posting.
 

czman

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You've have literally typed a lot of nothing. You don't understand the conversation that's occurring. You have a faulty assumption of the way people here are talking about offense. Please cease and desist from posting.

I forgot who I was typing with. My fault I won't make that mistake again. For some reason I thought you had an IQ above 70.
 

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The reason i'm not all giddy about Butler is because his style reminds me a lot of Deng, and we went nowhere with Deng. Now, i'm not saying Deng is/was a bad player but that's essentially what Butler is the only difference is Butler is a bit more aggressive than Deng but they're Defense first, open shot second. And, I really think that's the player Butler is and will be until further notice.

What? Jimmy has much better handles, and his ability to attack the rim has to be respected. If he can get a consistent mid range jumper, like Deng did in his best years here, it is game over. And if he can be a consistent 33% shooter from the arch, it is game over.

Deng, in his last season here, averaged 19/game, shooting 45% from the field. For his career he has averaged 16/game.

If Butler can get to where Deng is offensively, he will dominate all 2 guards in the league, with his size, strength, and speed. He is the best defensive guard in the league period. If he turns that corner, and becomes a legit 2-way player (and Rose stays healthy), the Bulls will lock down the east.

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I like how getting compared to Deng is supposed to be a bad thing. Deng was the man, and if Jimmy can be that, then Bulls will have no problem keeping him.
 

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