Cubs Farm System And Prospects Discussion Thread

Bigfoot

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Beck I think I have asked before but Lacy is a low 90s on fastball. I'm still learning the advance metrics, but it seems with his k rate, and ground ball rate this could be a kid moving up the rankings list
 

beckdawg

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Beck I think I have asked before but Lacy is a low 90s on fastball. I'm still learning the advance metrics, but it seems with his k rate, and ground ball rate this could be a kid moving up the rankings list

Yeah I'd be surprised if he isn't basically where Rucker was to start this year. MLB.com had rucker at #20. As far as advanced metrics, the way to look at k/9 is like this. League average this year among starters is 8.26 per 9 though I think typically you're fairly safe going with 8 k/9 being average. K/9 doesn't entirely tell the whole story. Often what you're more interested in is K:BB ratio. BB/9 this year is 3.10. So just from a rule of thumb stand point 8 k/9 and 3 bb/9 or roughly 2.66 k:BB ratio is average.

When talking about prospects I largely don't care about ERA. ERA in the minors is sort of useless because you could be dealing with a guy who's too young for the level or vice versa a guy who dominates younger guys. You can also deal with bad defenders. Strikerouts and walks basically take everything else out of the equation. Typically speaking, the rest is BABIP related anyways. One caveat I'd put in there is HR. Some guys just give up more and that's going to hurt your ERA in ways that are more impactful than any other hit.

In terms of expectations, you first gotta look at age average for levels. DSL which is a rookie league for IFA average is 17.7 for hitters and 18.5 for pitchers. Arizona rookie league which is the cubs rookie league(There's the appilachian rookie league and gulf coast for other teams) is 19.6 years old for hitters this year and 20.5 for pitchers. A- is 21 and 21.4. Midwest league(A) is 21.3 and 21.9. Carolina League(A+) is 22.4 and 23.1. Southern league(AA) is 24 and 24.4. And the PCL(AAA) is 26.6 for both. It's important to keep that in mind. Just as an easy example, Ademan is 19 for another 60 or so days. He's only hitting .218/.306/.300 so for those not really paying attention you might think he's kind of a bust this year. But he's 19 at Myrtle Beach where the average age ofr a hitter is 22.4. You're talking roughly 3 years older than him.

Typically speaking, if you're a college player it's rather unlikely for you to be well under age for a level until like AA/AAA. So, in the case of Lacy, him being 22 and starting in A ball this year I'd argue he's maybe a little behind where a top tier college prospect might be but it's not like he's 24. And the way I factor that in is you take your normal expectation for a guy at an appropriate age and expect slightly more. Again as an example, if you want 8 k/9 and 3 bb/9 for an average MLB player then vs similarly aged competition you also want that in the minors. But for someone who's a little older you may want to see say 9 k/9 and a better walk rate.

Getting back to k:bb ratios, 3 is pretty decent. Think that's where I'd put the starting point for being a "prospect." If you're below that you're probably just organizational filler. For example Jen-Ho Tseng is kind of a fringe #5 type pitcher. He had 442 k's and 149 walks or 2.97 K:BB ratio in the minors. Once you start getting over 4 you're likely a mid rotation type talent or better. Hendricks as an example was 4.77 in the minors. The elite of elite guys might get to 5 but honestly it's kind of rare that it happens because typically if you're performing that well you're way better than the level you're at and you need to be promoted.

Now obviously context is important here. You look at someone like Chris Archer in the minors and he's below 2 k:bb rate. However, in his case it wasn't that he couldn't strike people out. He just lacked command. He was regularly posting 4, 5 and 6 bb/9's at various levels. And there's certainly examples of guys who are way too young to be at a level who don't perform that well.

To summarize a bit here, typically what I look for in someone to be excited about is a 4+ k:bb ratio and someone who throws ground balls. The second part isn't as important but it's kind of the philosophy the cubs run with. They want pitchers who throw ground balls to athletic defenders behind the pitcher. So, often times the cubs starters wont be that interesting from a k:bb ratio standpoint. In AAA they have a lot of guys who don't get K's but throw tons of ground balls. And that's in general why their pitching is viewed poorly by prospect people.
 

Bigfoot

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Yeah I'd be surprised if he isn't basically where Rucker was to start this year. MLB.com had rucker at #20. As far as advanced metrics, the way to look at k/9 is like this. League average this year among starters is 8.26 per 9 though I think typically you're fairly safe going with 8 k/9 being average. K/9 doesn't entirely tell the whole story. Often what you're more interested in is K:BB ratio. BB/9 this year is 3.10. So just from a rule of thumb stand point 8 k/9 and 3 bb/9 or roughly 2.66 k:BB ratio is average.

When talking about prospects I largely don't care about ERA. ERA in the minors is sort of useless because you could be dealing with a guy who's too young for the level or vice versa a guy who dominates younger guys. You can also deal with bad defenders. Strikerouts and walks basically take everything else out of the equation. Typically speaking, the rest is BABIP related anyways. One caveat I'd put in there is HR. Some guys just give up more and that's going to hurt your ERA in ways that are more impactful than any other hit.

In terms of expectations, you first gotta look at age average for levels. DSL which is a rookie league for IFA average is 17.7 for hitters and 18.5 for pitchers. Arizona rookie league which is the cubs rookie league(There's the appilachian rookie league and gulf coast for other teams) is 19.6 years old for hitters this year and 20.5 for pitchers. A- is 21 and 21.4. Midwest league(A) is 21.3 and 21.9. Carolina League(A+) is 22.4 and 23.1. Southern league(AA) is 24 and 24.4. And the PCL(AAA) is 26.6 for both. It's important to keep that in mind. Just as an easy example, Ademan is 19 for another 60 or so days. He's only hitting .218/.306/.300 so for those not really paying attention you might think he's kind of a bust this year. But he's 19 at Myrtle Beach where the average age ofr a hitter is 22.4. You're talking roughly 3 years older than him.

Typically speaking, if you're a college player it's rather unlikely for you to be well under age for a level until like AA/AAA. So, in the case of Lacy, him being 22 and starting in A ball this year I'd argue he's maybe a little behind where a top tier college prospect might be but it's not like he's 24. And the way I factor that in is you take your normal expectation for a guy at an appropriate age and expect slightly more. Again as an example, if you want 8 k/9 and 3 bb/9 for an average MLB player then vs similarly aged competition you also want that in the minors. But for someone who's a little older you may want to see say 9 k/9 and a better walk rate.

Getting back to k:bb ratios, 3 is pretty decent. Think that's where I'd put the starting point for being a "prospect." If you're below that you're probably just organizational filler. For example Jen-Ho Tseng is kind of a fringe #5 type pitcher. He had 442 k's and 149 walks or 2.97 K:BB ratio in the minors. Once you start getting over 4 you're likely a mid rotation type talent or better. Hendricks as an example was 4.77 in the minors. The elite of elite guys might get to 5 but honestly it's kind of rare that it happens because typically if you're performing that well you're way better than the level you're at and you need to be promoted.

Now obviously context is important here. You look at someone like Chris Archer in the minors and he's below 2 k:bb rate. However, in his case it wasn't that he couldn't strike people out. He just lacked command. He was regularly posting 4, 5 and 6 bb/9's at various levels. And there's certainly examples of guys who are way too young to be at a level who don't perform that well.

To summarize a bit here, typically what I look for in someone to be excited about is a 4+ k:bb ratio and someone who throws ground balls. The second part isn't as important but it's kind of the philosophy the cubs run with. They want pitchers who throw ground balls to athletic defenders behind the pitcher. So, often times the cubs starters wont be that interesting from a k:bb ratio standpoint. In AAA they have a lot of guys who don't get K's but throw tons of ground balls. And that's in general why their pitching is viewed poorly by prospect people.

appreciate the write up and information Beck.
 

CSF77

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I think this just shows that the Cubs have good depth in the minors for SP prospects.

Ranking them right now:

Alozay (injured but really doesn't change much)
ODLC: Was meh and got busted. Expect a nosedive
Albertos: Can't even break into A ball. Expect a nose dive.
Lange: Moving up to #2.
Little: Better than last year....well don't see a change
Hatch: Really has be a solid back of the rotation arm. I don't expect much change here.
Tseng: Might never see his name again
Maples: Same thing.
Steele: T.J. so really depends on his recovery. Might drop to 20-30 range more so to inactive.
Estrada: Hasn't pitched so this is based off projections.
Uelmen: Going up. Can see him behind Hatch now.
Thompson: Might jump ahead of Little. He has been that good.
Moreno: off top 30
Rucker: Going up. He might be up with Uelmen
Mills: Eventually you are not a prospect anymore....
Assad: Fringe honestly. We wil see
Hudson: Disappointment is vast here for me.
Marquez: Think he goes up honestly. Under the radar but the numbers are strong at A-
Clifton: Stopped his nose dive at AA but is piggybacking Butler ATM so it is stalling him. I don't see him breaking top 20
Abbott: Up with Uelmen
Underwood: Mixed bag still. See Mills

Lacey should break the top 30 but more so due to some injury/drop off in production.
 

CSF77

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If I was going ballzy:

Lange
Thompson
Alozay: this is mostly due to starting rankings and production. It justifies passing Alzolay's injury.

After that it bunches up. You could rank it many ways. Projected vs actual or find a happy medium.

I would go:

Marquez (Said balzy but lefty throwing mid 90's with a .203 BAA/ 3.17 BB/9 12.7 SO/9 I'll live with it.)
Little: Stuff is that good that I can't drop him.
Hatch: Lacks top end but he has been stable.
Rucker: Same thing
Slot in ODLC but I'm doubting this honestly.
UelMen
Abbott
Albertos (Not willing to drop him further just because of his change up) Not sold on him though.

At this point I would guess Lacey and Clifton would fall in. It could go up also. We Saw Alozay jump last year like a rocket so if he continues to dominate A+ then it forces a change of opinion.

For got Swarmer. He is a little like Lacey. He needs to grow a beard though. Facially challenged
 

CSF77

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So Trevor Clifton went 5 IP 2 hits 0 Runs 2 BB/6 SO in a shut out.

That is a pretty big deal as this was his best performance at Iowa.

Tenn 2.86 ERA. Iowa: 3.58 ERA

over all 3.43 BB/9 7.66 SO/9

Compared to the rest:

Mills 4-9 5.06 ERA
Underwood 4-9 4.59 ERA
Tseng 2-10 6.99 ERA

Pretty refreshing honestly seeing that.

I really hope that they push up some arms soon. Tseng should be cut. They brought in Casy Colman again and he is a roster holder.

Rucker and Hatch IMO should be promoted. Robinson if they want to slow Hatch. All 3 are pretty deserving. Rucker most of all with a 1.12 WHIP That is what Clifton was pushing there and Clifton was pretty seamless moving up.

To note Underwood held a 1.30 WHIP at AA and a 1.35 at AAA. Right now he is struggling. I'm honestly thinking that this is a key stat when looking at these guys and if they are ready. 1.30 really means that you are fringe. Closer to 1.00 you are the more you are dominating the talent.
 

CSF77

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But where they stand right now by WHIP:

Thomas: 0.96 A
Lacey: 1.03 A-A+
Thompson: 1.05 Combined A+-AA
Swarmer: 1.08 Combined A+-AA
Miller: 1.10 A+ only
Lange: 1.11 A+ only
Marquez: 1.11 A- only
Clifton: 1.18 Combined AA-AAA
Rucker: 1.13 AA only
Abbott: 1.22 Combined A-A+
Uelman: 1.24 Combined A-A+
Robinson: 1.24 A+ only
Underwood: 1.32 AAA only
ODLC: 1.38 AA only
Hatch: 1.39 AA only

In general most when up after promotion which is expected. Lacy went down but 1 game is not a measuring stick.
 

CSF77

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Nico shut down because of an injury to ligaments in his elbow. He shot up fast. Most likely starts up in A+. Year of the elbow
 

CSF77

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BA updated mids:

Have Amaya as #1. I’ll buy that

2. Alozay
3: Aldeman. Well...
4: Hoerner. Maybe
5: Bote...for a Util?
6: Lange
7: Keegan
8: Little
9:ODLC
10:Gallardo (intl sign this year)

Well it seems that they favor bats honestly and to be honest it feels kinda snubbing Lange and Keegan...just saying.

Rest of it? Bote really?

Like Gallardo. Edgy ranking and I’m not against it. Amaya looks the part this year and is the best trade chip right now.
 

CSF77

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Pretty shady ranking IMO Kopech at 40? LOL
Projected as a closer...LOL

Bad site

Is his control shaky? I really haven’t followed rebuilds after enduring one.
 

beckdawg

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Pretty shady ranking IMO Kopech at 40? LOL
Projected as a closer...LOL

Bad site

I haven't read the site but with all due respect there's a high chance he ends up a closer. His fastball slider combo is great which is why he has great k numbers but his change up is still fringy and he doesn't have great control. He walked 5.02 per 9 at A+, 4.53 at AA and 5.53 at AAA. That's not going to play at starter. Maybe he gets a handle on it soon enough to stay a starter but the problem is only going to get worse in the majors where guys have better eyes.
 

CSF77

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But on to Cubs related. We wont talk about the Sox issues here. They have their Fanboi play land.

Now on Amaya.

He was signed for his glove:

With his agility and soft hands, Amaya is an advanced receiver for a teenager, framing and blocking pitches well. His arm strength is average but plays better than that because he makes quick and accurate throws, and he erased 41 percent of basestealers in the NWL. His arm strength has improved since he has signed and he could be a plus thrower once he's fully developed.

This year at SB (19 BTW) .273/.342/.467 and a plus D at catcher. Like I said he is pretty deserving of the top rank and could gain steam into the top 100 when MLB posts. To be honest that was MLB's write up and they were not valuing his bat at the time and still dropped Cubs #10.

I honestly see him as better framing/glove than Contreras. Bat may end up a wash. Doesn't have the arm but has the fast twitch that Contreras has.
 

beckdawg

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Roederer is having another night 2-2 with a 2B and a walk so far as well as stealing his 5th base. Since he debuted on july 6th he's had 1 game out of 12 where he didn't get a hit and in that game he went 0-2 with 2 walks. He's hitting .422 now with an OBP over .500. He's got 19 hits in 45 ABs and a 10:7 BB:K ratio.
 

CSF77

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Cubs den on Clifton. And for what it’s worth proud that he turned it around.


Trevor Clifton (4-6, 3.03 ERA in 20 G between AA/AAA) continues his turnaround season. His 2017 may have unraveled after the All-Star Break but he shows no signs of slowing down this year. Periphery numbers still indicate a slight regression may be coming, but the eye test sees improvement. His fastball may not have the same velocity as a couple seasons ago, but it hasn't lost any movement, and he is now beginning to show actual command rather than just control. On top of that, his big curveball still freezes hitters, and his comfort level and consistency with his changeup appears at an all-time high.
 

CSF77

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3rd round pick Jimmy Herron only collected 2 hits over his first 5 pro games, but he did walk 6 times. Since then, the bat has awakened. He has 7 hits over his past 4 games, including his first home run, and added 2 more walks for good measure. He is now slashing .310/.459/.517 in 9 games with 8 walks and just 2 strikeouts in 37 PAs. The 21-year old is likely ready for a greater challenge in Eugene. And the Emeralds could certainly use another boost for their sputtering offense.
 

brett05

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I haven't read the site but with all due respect there's a high chance he ends up a closer. His fastball slider combo is great which is why he has great k numbers but his change up is still fringy and he doesn't have great control. He walked 5.02 per 9 at A+, 4.53 at AA and 5.53 at AAA. That's not going to play at starter. Maybe he gets a handle on it soon enough to stay a starter but the problem is only going to get worse in the majors where guys have better eyes.

There is a near zero chance he closes out games. His floor is like a 3/4 starter with a ceiling of ACE.
 

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