OT: Kobe

Sunbiz1 · Dec 12, 2014

Why would a player:
A. Hang around much too long, and in the process tarnish his own achievements...his passing Jordan in scoring is meaningless.
And
B. In the process of doing so, set his own franchise back a decade?.

Come to think of it, why would the Lakers allow it?.

Not that I'm complaining, since the result has been a much happier Gasol in Chicago.

Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

Sunbiz1 said:
Why would a player:
A. Hang around much too long, and in the process tarnish his own achievements...his passing Jordan in scoring is meaningless.
And
B. In the process of doing so, set his own franchise back a decade?.

Come to think of it, why would the Lakers allow it?.

Not that I'm complaining, since the result has been a much happier Gasol in Chicago.

How has he hung around too long? It may seem that way because he started when he was only 17 years old. The Lakers have zero talent around him and are rebuilding, he is the only draw and reason to watch them.

ChiSoxCity · Dec 12, 2014

Kobe easily makes my top 5 greatest NBA douche bag list.

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Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

ChiSoxCity said:
Kobe easily makes my top 5 greatest NBA douche bag list.

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That may be but he is also a top 5 player all time. Not simply because of his stats, but he is the best clutch player in the history of the game. Better than Jordan.

ChiSoxCity · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
That may be but he is also a top 5 player all time. Not simply because of his stats, but he is the best clutch player in the history of the game. Better than Jordan.

Uh-huh. Keep telling yourself that, and maybe you'll actually believe it someday.

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Axl Rose · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
That may be but he is also a top 5 player all time. Not simply because of his stats, but he is the best clutch player in the history of the game. Better than Jordan.

Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

AirGordon7 said:

Being the best closer to ever play is more than game winning shots. He has been bringing back the Lakers or closing the 4th quarter better than anyone in history.

Crystallas · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
Being the best closer to ever play is more than game winning shots. He has been bringing back the Lakers or closing the 4th quarter better than anyone in history.

Good argument. Too bad it's not the case at all. I've been all over the world, and Jordan's clutch is recognized far more outside of Chicago, than Kobe's is recognized outside of LA. This even includes younger generations that only saw Kobe, or 2nd 3-peat Mike. And there is a reason for this perception. Playoff performances. Not even counting the more important aspect of the game, defensive performances in the clutch.

clonetrooper264 · Dec 12, 2014

Kobe is clutch...but he's not MJ clutch. End of story.

BNB · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
Being the best closer to ever play is more than game winning shots. He has been bringing back the Lakers or closing the 4th quarter better than anyone in history.

Just because Kobe leads a comeback for the Lakers in the regular season against scrub teams here and there doesn't make him more clutch than Jordan. The only reason why he even has so many game winning shots or points in crunch time is because he's the only one shooting. That's also a big reason why the Lakers lose many games and why Kobe also has the most MISSED shots in crunch time.

His FG% in crunch time fuckin blows. That's in the last 24 seconds, 30 seconds, 2 minutes and 5 minutes. Last year, I saw a stat that showed Kobe's shooting percentage in crunch time for both the regular season and playoffs. It was under 30% while MJ's was over 55%

Plus, MJ didn't need to lead many comebacks. He and the Bulls put teams away earlier in the game while Kobe's shot jacking often keeps opposing teams in the game.

Kobe is still one of the best scorers ever, but there's no way he's more clutch than MJ. Definitely not the most clutch player in NBA history.

Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

Crystallas said:
Good argument. Too bad it's not the case at all. I've been all over the world, and Jordan's clutch is recognized far more outside of Chicago, than Kobe's is recognized outside of LA. This even includes younger generations that only saw Kobe, or 2nd 3-peat Mike. And there is a reason for this perception. Playoff performances. Not even counting the more important aspect of the game, defensive performances in the clutch.

I get it and I am not saying Jordan isn't one of the best, just my opinion that Kobe is the better game closer. I was responding to the original post but should not have brought the untouchable Jordan into it. But this overall idea that Jordan is hands down the greatest at everything without debate is funny to me. Kobe may or may not be better but there is certainly an argument.

Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

BNB said:
Just because Kobe leads a comeback for the Lakers in the regular season against scrub teams here and there doesn't make him more clutch than Jordan. The only reason why he even has so many game winning shots or points in crunch time is because he's the only one shooting. That's also a big reason why the Lakers lose many games and why Kobe also has the most MISSED shots in crunch time.

His FG% in crunch time fuckin blows. That's in the last 24 seconds, 30 seconds, 2 minutes and 5 minutes. Last year, I saw a stat that showed Kobe's shooting percentage in crunch time for both the regular season and playoffs. It was under 30% while MJ's was over 55%

Plus, MJ didn't need to lead many comebacks. He and the Bulls put teams away earlier in the game while Kobe's shot jacking often keeps opposing teams in the game.

Kobe is still one of the best scorers ever, but there's no way he's more clutch than MJ. Definitely not the most clutch player in NBA history.

I agree, once Magic and Bird aged and/or left the game Jordan and his teams didn't really have any challengers and didin't really have to lead comebacks or play game 7's of series.

The Hawk · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
That may be but he is also a top 5 player all time. Not simply because of his stats, but he is the best clutch player in the history of the game. Better than Jordan.

He sure as hell is not top five. Hell, he isn't one of the top three guards of all time (Jordan, Robertson, West). West and Robertson played in a league that wasn't watered down with shit teams and bums and Jordan stood out against his peers more than any other player not named Wilt Chamberlain.

clonetrooper264 · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
I agree, once Magic and Bird aged and/or left the game Jordan and his teams didn't really have any challengers and didin't really have to lead comebacks or play game 7's of series.

Were the Pistons not a challenge initially? Were the Knicks not a challenge? Or the Pacers? Or even the Jazz? That last championship run had a few comebacks. Not playing many game 7's is more a testament to how good the team was rather than how bad the teams they played were.

The Hawk · Dec 12, 2014

BNB said:
Just because Kobe leads a comeback for the Lakers in the regular season against scrub teams here and there doesn't make him more clutch than Jordan. The only reason why he even has so many game winning shots or points in crunch time is because he's the only one shooting. That's also a big reason why the Lakers lose many games and why Kobe also has the most MISSED shots in crunch time.

His FG% in crunch time fuckin blows. That's in the last 24 seconds, 30 seconds, 2 minutes and 5 minutes. Last year, I saw a stat that showed Kobe's shooting percentage in crunch time for both the regular season and playoffs. It was under 30% while MJ's was over 55%

Plus, MJ didn't need to lead many comebacks. He and the Bulls put teams away earlier in the game while Kobe's shot jacking often keeps opposing teams in the game.

Kobe is still one of the best scorers ever, but there's no way he's more clutch than MJ. Definitely not the most clutch player in NBA history.

By the Way, there was a reason why Jerry West was called Mr. Clutch. And this was before the 3 Point Rule

Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

The Hawk said:
He sure as hell is not top five. Hell, he isn't one of the top three guards of all time (Jordan, Robertson, West). West and Robertson played in a league that wasn't watered down with shit teams and bums and Jordan stood out against his peers more than any other player not named Wilt Chamberlain.

West is often quoted as saying Kobe is the greatest Laker ever(I don't agree). Of the players I have seen with my own eyes year in and year out Kobe is top 5 or at least has to be in the conversation.

Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
Were the Pistons not a challenge initially? Were the Knicks not a challenge? Or the Pacers? Or even the Jazz? That last championship run had a few comebacks. Not playing many game 7's is more a testament to how good the team was rather than how bad the teams they played were.

Maybe, maybe not. Of all the teams you listed were there any all-time great players on those opposing teams? No. The competition in the 80's was much tougher that is just a fact.

On a side note, the Pistons only win their second ring because Magic and Byron Scott get hurt very early in that series and still play them close. That back to back Piston team is overrated in my opinion.

clonetrooper264 · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
Maybe, maybe not. Of all the teams you listed were there any all-time great players on those opposing teams? No. The competition in the 80's was much tougher that is just a fact.

On a side note, the Pistons only win their second ring because Magic and Byron Scott get hurt very early in that series and still play them close. That back to back Piston team is overrated in my opinion.

John Stockton and Karl Malone are not all time greats? Isaiah Thomas? Patrick Ewing? Reggie Miller? I suppose they're not Magic and Bird level, but those are still top 50 players all time pretty much. Heck, those Pistons teams were the major roadblock for the Jordan, Pippen, Grant Bulls regardless of how you think of them overall, they still beat the Bulls twice. You are right that the 80s had those big name talents, but it's not like the 90's were devoid of talent.

Treehorn · Dec 12, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
John Stockton and Karl Malone are not all time greats? Isaiah Thomas? Patrick Ewing? Reggie Miller? I suppose they're not Magic and Bird level, but those are still top 50 players all time pretty much. Heck, those Pistons teams were the major roadblock for the Jordan, Pippen, Grant Bulls regardless of how you think of them overall, they still beat the Bulls twice. You are right that the 80s had those big name talents, but it's not like the 90's were devoid of talent.

I think the one guy from the 90's other than Jordan that was a truly great player was Hakeen Olijuwan. That guy could put a team on his back and carry them, and did to two rings. He could do it all. But the other guys you mention don't compare to the stars of the 80's - Bird, Dr. J, Mchale, and Thomas was more in the 80's.

BNB · Dec 12, 2014

Treehorn said:
I think the one guy from the 90's other than Jordan that was a truly great player was Hakeen Olijuwan. That guy could put a team on his back and carry them, and did to two rings. He could do it all. But the other guys you mention don't compare to the stars of the 80's - Bird, Dr. J, Mchale, and Thomas was more in the 80's.

Are you kidding?

The ONLY other great player in the 90's other than MJ was Hakeem?

:obama:

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