Is keeping Jimmy Butler going to be an issue?

Naptastic

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ursamajor said:
He is going to be a Max player.
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It depends how consistent he can play at this level. Right now, it looks like thus is the new jimmy. Wait till playoffs to see what he's worth. He's going to get paid for what he does when it really matters.
 
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Naptastic said:
It depends how consistent he can play at this level. Right now, it looks like thus is the new jimmy. Wait till playoffs to see what he's worth. He's going to get paid for what he does when it really matters.
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Is Kevin Love considered a max player? Did he earn that in the play offs? More than 1 team will offer Jimmy a Max deal
 
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Naptastic said:
Love has also been playing at a high level for more than 1/3 of a season.
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So has Jimmy just not offensively. But there is no fluke to his shots dropping. He is creating pure and simple
 
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he is a max player based on many factors but the main factor is a team other then Bulls will offer max.

Teams like Minny, Memphis, Toronto, Phoenix etc who either dont have a star or a small market that cant attract a star usually settle for fringe max players. Just look at dumb ass contracts that have been floated around the league for years-Sprewell, Gay, Darko, TT, etc.... There are desperate ass teams out there. And the kicker is Butler is a good character individual that at least looks like he wont take that as a lottery ticket and coast through the contract.
 

2323

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Naptastic said:
It depends how consistent he can play at this level. Right now, it looks like thus is the new jimmy. Wait till playoffs to see what he's worth. He's going to get paid for what he does when it really matters.
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If his play drops off in the playoffs, it will most likely be from injury or fatigue. I don't know why people think he might turn into a pumpkin at some point. His ability to score around the basket and get to the free throw line is very encouraging.
 
Naptastic

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2323 said:
If his play drops off in the playoffs, it will most likely be from injury or fatigue. I don't know why people think he might turn into a pumpkin at some point. His ability to score around the basket and get to the free throw line is very encouraging.
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Don't get me wrong, I think the guy hasn't even hit his ceiling. Im just facilitating conversation. [emoji6]
 
RoseMVP1

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Anyone that thinks Thompson is better, please elaborate. Other than 3 point shooting, I can't think of a single thing Klay is better than Jimmy at.
 
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RoseMVP1 said:
Anyone that thinks Thompson is better, please elaborate. Other than 3 point shooting, I can't think of a single thing Klay is better than Jimmy at.
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Creating off the dribble perhaps? Jimmy's vastly improved in that area for sure, but Klay has been able to do that since day one. Both are good finishers...probably equal passers. But again, kind of like I said in the other thread, the value that Klay's 3 point shooting really is a big deal so to discount that for Klay is like discounting Jimmy's defensive presence. You take away a huge part of that player's impact.

So I do think Klay is better because of his 3 point shooting...because he's one of the best in the NBA at it. Klay is sort of like the player fans wanted to make when we had Korver and Brewer on the team (ie fuse them together to have elite 3pt shooting and good defense) plus he can create his own shot and create for others. Jimmy is sort of the reverse of Klay. His strengths are defensive versatility and rebounding. You could honestly go either way and have a solid argument.
 

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clonetrooper264 said:
Creating off the dribble perhaps? Jimmy's vastly improved in that area for sure, but Klay has been able to do that since day one. Both are good finishers...probably equal passers. But again, kind of like I said in the other thread, the value that Klay's 3 point shooting really is a big deal so to discount that for Klay is like discounting Jimmy's defensive presence. You take away a huge part of that player's impact.

So I do think Klay is better because of his 3 point shooting...because he's one of the best in the NBA at it. Klay is sort of like the player fans wanted to make when we had Korver and Brewer on the team (ie fuse them together to have elite 3pt shooting and good defense) plus he can create his own shot and create for others. Jimmy is sort of the reverse of Klay. His strengths are defensive versatility and rebounding. You could honestly go either way and have a solid argument.
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You're so focused on not being dismissive about Thompson's 3 pt shooting, you're overselling it and dismissing parts of Butlers game. Butlers offensive game is 2.7 PPG better than Thompson's in terms of scoring. Butler shoots .521 on 2s, while Thompson shoots .471. That translates to 1 ppg if you apply it to Thompson's shots per game. Thompson is 1.8 ppg better on 3s. But then, when you consider how much Butler scores from the free throw line, it nets to being 2.7 ppg better. Feel free to check my math.

And then at defense, Butler is well better. You could argue that threes by Thompson spreads the floor for others. But then you could also argue Butler scoring from attacking the basket means more.

It's interesting you reference Korver and Brewer in describing Thompson. On that same note, Butler is the fictional player who can create his own shot that Bulls fans once longed for. Three years ago, if Bulls fans could have created a player that they didn't have, it would have looked like what Butler has become. If the Bulls would have had this version of Butler, they would have beat Miami.

And the thing is, Butler could actually improve. Most would likely expect that he either plateaus or regresses somewhat. But that's only because they didn't expect this from him. The guy came from nothing and his entire basketball life has been about improvement--more than others. His ethic has taken him so far already. There's no way of knowing how much more might be there.
 
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Klay gets the edge on outside shooting, Butler gets the edge on his ability to attack the rim, and is stronger in the post. Also on his (Jimmy) ability to get to the stripe.
 
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i guess i lean toward Klay because i feel what hes doing will be sustainable, while in the back of my mind im still not sure about Butler....i mean when has a player made this kind of drastic improvement on his offensive game?

he went from a terrible offense player to a player thats leading us in scoring and can create his own shot in a years time

that kind of improvement is unbelievable
 
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2323 said:
You're so focused on not being dismissive about Thompson's 3 pt shooting, you're overselling it and dismissing parts of Butlers game. Butlers offensive game is 2.7 PPG better than Thompson's in terms of scoring. Butler shoots .521 on 2s, while Thompson shoots .471. That translates to 1 ppg if you apply it to Thompson's shots per game. Thompson is 1.8 ppg better on 3s. But then, when you consider how much Butler scores from the free throw line, it nets to being 2.7 ppg better. Feel free to check my math.

And then at defense, Butler is well better. You could argue that threes by Thompson spreads the floor for others. But then you could also argue Butler scoring from attacking the basket means more.

It's interesting you reference Korver and Brewer in describing Thompson. On that same note, Butler is the fictional player who can create his own shot that Bulls fans once longed for. Three years ago, if Bulls fans could have created a player that they didn't have, it would have looked like what Butler has become. If the Bulls would have had this version of Butler, they would have beat Miami.

And the thing is, Butler could actually improve. Most would likely expect that he either plateaus or regresses somewhat. But that's only because they didn't expect this from him. The guy came from nothing and his entire basketball life has been about improvement--more than others. His ethic has taken him so far already. There's no way of knowing how much more might be there.
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I mean in no way to disregard Butler's game, I hope you understand this. I've said the entire time, the argument could be made either way, I just believe Klay gets the edge right now.

Are you also not the guy who posted about the issues of Butler's inconsistent three point shooting? Maybe that was czman...I tend to get the two of you confused because of the 4 letter username and no profile picture (no disrespect to either of you btw).

Butler isn't quite that fictional merged player because he doesn't hit 3s like Korver does. That fictional player would be Klay Thompson.

At the end of the day the important thing is this: Butler's taken a huge step up in his game to the point where he's in the discussion for one of the best SGs in the entire league. Recall this was a player who people argued was not capable of being a SG and definitely not one who most considered would even be all star material. This only means good things for the Bulls this year. Plus, as you mentioned, he could still improve. When it comes down to it I want Jimmy to be the best SG in the league and I hope he gets there, I just don't think he's there yet.
 
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AirGordon7 said:
i guess i lean toward Klay because i feel what hes doing will be sustainable, while in the back of my mind im still not sure about Butler....i mean when has a player made this kind of drastic improvement on his offensive game?

he went from a terrible offense player to a player thats leading us in scoring and can create his own shot in a years time

that kind of improvement is unbelievable
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I have done zero research but I would venture to guess that many winners of the most improved player award have done similar jumps in production.

Dragic is a player who made a jump up to leading scorer type of production, though I'm not sure how immediate that was. Either way, I see what you're getting at and do hope that it is sustainable for the future.
 
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most MIP players had shown show signs the year prior and simply were given more minutes/bigger role the following season which lead to their "breakout" season

Jimmy was given a ton of minutes and had his opportunity last season so this is a legit huge improvement
 
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only other guard duo i think is better than Rose/Butler are the splash bros. Besides those 2 i dont see many other 1/2 guards better than rose/butler. I think this will be more apparent after the all star break when rose gets back in full stride.
 

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2323 said:
If his play drops off in the playoffs, it will most likely be from injury or fatigue. I don't know why people think he might turn into a pumpkin at some point. His ability to score around the basket and get to the free throw line is very encouraging.
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Yep. I certainly was a skeptic about him being an excellent #2 guard and am very happy that I was completely wrong. He's proven himself in my book and will get paid for it.
 

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RoseMVP1 said:
Anyone that thinks Thompson is better, please elaborate. Other than 3 point shooting, I can't think of a single thing Klay is better than Jimmy at.
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Well there are a few things to consider when using raw data, like some have.

Butler averages 19.5 per 36 minutes
Thompson averages 23 per 36 minutes


Thompson is better at creating his own shot.

Butler is assisted on 96% of his 3s, 58% of his dunks and 66% of his shots.
Thompson is assisted on 86% of his 3s, 53% of his dunks and 64% of his shots.

So Thompson is a better shooter, who gets his own shot at more frequently, and spaces the floor better.

Butler and Thompson are about the same height, but Thompson has longer arms, better wingspan and standing reach.

Thompson is a very good defender too.

So in short, Thompson is a better shooter and scorer, who is longer, spaces the floor better, and creates his own shot better.

Butler is a better rebounder, but I don't think rebounding is as important from the 2 as shooting and floor spacing.

I also don't think 40+ minutes and 8+ FT attempts is sustainable through the playoffs. I would rather have the guy who can score without getting to the line and has less of an injury risk and history.
 

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2323 said:
If his play drops off in the playoffs, it will most likely be from injury or fatigue. I don't know why people think he might turn into a pumpkin at some point. His ability to score around the basket and get to the free throw line is very encouraging.
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It is not turning into a pumpkin. Not sure why it has to be so extreme. The playoffs are a different animal. When teams see your tendencies and the Refs swallow the whistles will Butler sill be as effective. Right no Butler is living at the line an close to the basket. If teams back off him in the playoffs and don't over pursue will he still those back cuts. Will he still get to the Line 8+ times a game.

I am not sure that Butler's game is sustainable in a long series when good teams take away what you do best. Is Butler's secondary skills strong enough to keep this level through the playoffs. Right now I would say no. It is much easier to take away a driving lane and dare people to shoot then to body up shooters.

In the regular season you can get away with not being able to hit open shots at a high clip. Bad teams are not well coached enough and players just don't see people enough.

This is not saying that Butler will be a pumpkin in the playoffs. The man has flaws in his game and good teams can limit his strengths. How well can Butler improve on his flaws or or hide them will determine a lot. The playoffs are still months away and there is no need to crown him now. Time will tell.
 
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