Is keeping Jimmy Butler going to be an issue?

Crystallas · Dec 24, 2014

AirGordon7 said:
most MIP players had shown show signs the year prior and simply were given more minutes/bigger role the following season which lead to their "breakout" season

Jimmy was given a ton of minutes and had his opportunity last season so this is a legit huge improvement

Full disclosure. I think Jimmy is the 4th best SG in the NBA(but has the momentum to move up such a personal list when I take out the homerism bias). I still think Wade and Harden(who actually is a good defender when he puts the effort in, not ALL-D level by any stretch, but he has that capability to create turnovers). And Klay has a small edge, although I do wonder how well Klay would do, when he's the first option. His stats might be better, but I don't think he wins as much.

Anyways, I said my piece here, not going to back-and-fourth.

I quoted you, because you make a damn good point. I hope many thanks follow your post. A point that should be obvious, and I overlooked myself. Jimmy 2013-14 vs Jimmy 2014-15 is a very apples:apples comparison because he DOES get the minutes. I was honestly undecided on MIP, but now that you point that out, I don't see how Butler is not the frontrunner.

RoseMVP1 · Dec 24, 2014

AirGordon7 said:
i guess i lean toward Klay because i feel what hes doing will be sustainable, while in the back of my mind im still not sure about Butler....i mean when has a player made this kind of drastic improvement on his offensive game?

he went from a terrible offense player to a player thats leading us in scoring and can create his own shot in a years time

that kind of improvement is unbelievable

http://www.businessinsider.com/jimm...hout-cable-and-internet-to-train-more-2014-11

2323 · Dec 24, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
I mean in no way to disregard Butler's game, I hope you understand this. I've said the entire time, the argument could be made either way, I just believe Klay gets the edge right now.

Are you also not the guy who posted about the issues of Butler's inconsistent three point shooting? Maybe that was czman...I tend to get the two of you confused because of the 4 letter username and no profile picture (no disrespect to either of you btw).

Butler isn't quite that fictional merged player because he doesn't hit 3s like Korver does. That fictional player would be Klay Thompson.

At the end of the day the important thing is this: Butler's taken a huge step up in his game to the point where he's in the discussion for one of the best SGs in the entire league. Recall this was a player who people argued was not capable of being a SG and definitely not one who most considered would even be all star material. This only means good things for the Bulls this year. Plus, as you mentioned, he could still improve. When it comes down to it I want Jimmy to be the best SG in the league and I hope he gets there, I just don't think he's there yet.

As I told you, the numbers don't support Thompson having a slight edge.

And yes he is that guy. The big want was a guy who can create his own shot. These types of players aren't usually three point shooters. They're athleticism allow them to get shots closer to the basket. And so they're not typically three point shooters...at least until later.

Diddy1122 · Dec 24, 2014

AirGordon7 said:
most MIP players had shown show signs the year prior and simply were given more minutes/bigger role the following season which lead to their "breakout" season

Jimmy was given a ton of minutes and had his opportunity last season so this is a legit huge improvement

Agreed though the minutes with Jimmy last year was because Deng was traded. The plan going into that season was not to have Jimmy playing 38mpg and leading the league. He was not prepared at all to be an offensive option but he had to be when we lost the 19ppg that Deng was providing. This summer, he knew exactly what his role on the team would be going forward and that his offense would be needed, so he worked his ass off on getting better and boy has he not disappointed.

He bet on himself when he turned down the extension and he is winning that bet right now. There is not another player even close to him in the convo for MIP. And if the All-Star starters were not a popularity contest, he'd be starting in that game in February I'm sure of it.

2323 · Dec 24, 2014

czman said:
It is not turning into a pumpkin. Not sure why it has to be so extreme. The playoffs are a different animal. When teams see your tendencies and the Refs swallow the whistles will Butler sill be as effective. Right no Butler is living at the line an close to the basket. If teams back off him in the playoffs and don't over pursue will he still those back cuts. Will he still get to the Line 8+ times a game.

I am not sure that Butler's game is sustainable in a long series when good teams take away what you do best. Is Butler's secondary skills strong enough to keep this level through the playoffs. Right now I would say no. It is much easier to take away a driving lane and dare people to shoot then to body up shooters.

In the regular season you can get away with not being able to hit open shots at a high clip. Bad teams are not well coached enough and players just don't see people enough.

This is not saying that Butler will be a pumpkin in the playoffs. The man has flaws in his game and good teams can limit his strengths. How well can Butler improve on his flaws or or hide them will determine a lot. The playoffs are still months away and there is no need to crown him now. Time will tell.

I'm not worried about a playoff series where an opponent might have to over commit to defending Butler. If the opponent "holding" Butler to 10 means Rose scores 40, it's still likely a win.

clonetrooper264 · Dec 24, 2014

AirGordon7 said:
most MIP players had shown show signs the year prior and simply were given more minutes/bigger role the following season which lead to their "breakout" season

Jimmy was given a ton of minutes and had his opportunity last season so this is a legit huge improvement

Totally agree. I just brought up the MIP players because those were players who had a huge leap in production. Like I said, no research done whatsoever when I made that statement lol.

Raskolnikov · Dec 24, 2014

Okay...I like Jimmy but lets leave the splash brothers out of it. Thompson has proven to be an all-star and all world player who dominated the FIBA championships as well. Dude is green light all day even next to the greatest pure shooter of our time.

Harden is obviously more mature in his game than Butler, and routinely scores 30 points. I would put Butler above Wade personally, because of the minutes and reliability, consistency as Wade's abilities slip in and out. There was a time when Wade was the best defending SG in the league, but that might belong to Butler now. His offensive game will never be what Wades' was at the pinnacle.

Butler is still the better fit next to Rose however of all those guys. Our size has become an issue for most backcourts. The Bulls looked primed for their longest winning streak of the season now that rolls are established and everyone is back. The Pelicans are the biggest threat to a 10 game winning streak, but then we will have to take down goliath Houston at home for 11, and go @Washington for 13. I'd like to see 10 though. Win one of those, and then start another streak.

(looking further at the schedule, that Houston game begins a tough stretch, we should take advantage now if we can. Washington twice, spurs, dallas, atlanta, miami, golden state all coming in the next dozen after the houston game.

clonetrooper264 · Dec 24, 2014

2323 said:
As I told you, the numbers don't support Thompson having a slight edge.

Why? Just because he has 2.7 net points per shot less or whatever it was? I too can throw out numbers (which I will not czman already tossed out). In a league leading 40 minutes per game, Jimmy averages .1 more points than Klay Thompson does in 34 minutes per game. Normalized to per 36 minutes, Thompson comes out on top 23 to 19.5. So Jimmy gets more points per shot, Klay gets more points per minute. Klay's efficiency is also not too far behind Jimmy (58% to 60% TS%).

The numbers can support whatever you want them to support if you pick the right ones. I'm taking Klay right now because I know his production is sustainable. Jimmy hasn't proven it yet, but I think he can and he will. I don't see anything wrong with taking him over Klay right now if that's your cup of tea, but it is a judgment based on potential.

And yes he is that guy. The big want was a guy who can create his own shot. These types of players aren't usually three point shooters. They're athleticism allow them to get shots closer to the basket. And so they're not typically three point shooters...at least until later.

That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying fans wanted a player who would play like Korver and Brewer merged together. Essentially, the ultimate 3&D player. Klay Thompson is that player, not Jimmy Butler. Now someone who can create their own shot, you can take either. Butler this season is that kind of player. We good?

Raskolnikov · Dec 24, 2014

Butler and Gibson are two sides of the same coin. They have a beautiful flavor for a Thibs team. We are going to be special this year, and I look forward to seeing the required effort to knock us out, or us winning. Either will be a sight to behold.

2323 · Dec 24, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
Why? Just because he has 2.7 net points per shot less or whatever it was? I too can throw out numbers (which I will not czman already tossed out). In a league leading 40 minutes per game, Jimmy averages .1 more points than Klay Thompson does in 34 minutes per game. Normalized to per 36 minutes, Thompson comes out on top 23 to 19.5. So Jimmy gets more points per shot, Klay gets more points per minute. Klay's efficiency is also not too far behind Jimmy (58% to 60% TS%).

The numbers can support whatever you want them to support if you pick the right ones. I'm taking Klay right now because I know his production is sustainable. Jimmy hasn't proven it yet, but I think he can and he will. I don't see anything wrong with taking him over Klay right now if that's your cup of tea, but it is a judgment based on potential.

That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying fans wanted a player who would play like Korver and Brewer merged together. Essentially, the ultimate 3&D player. Klay Thompson is that player, not Jimmy Butler. Now someone who can create their own shot, you can take either. Butler this season is that kind of player. We good?

You must have missed the part where I normalized the comparison so that its apples to apples and used Thompson's shot volume as a basis for comparison. This isn't slippery subjective math like what you're talking about. Again, it was an apples to apples comparison. The only thing I didn't tweak was free throws because if you do that, you punish Butler for attacking the basket. Those are hard earned points for absorbing contact more than a 3 pt shooter. Like is said, if you make it apples to apples, Butler is 2.7 better.

And you're wrong. They wanted a guy who create off the dribble and make his own shot, not another 3 pt guy.

clonetrooper264 · Dec 25, 2014

2323 said:
You must have missed the part where I normalized the comparison so that its apples to apples and used Thompson's shot volume as a basis for comparison. This isn't slippery subjective math like what you're talking about. Again, it was an apples to apples comparison. The only thing I didn't tweak was free throws because if you do that, you punish Butler for attacking the basket. Those are hard earned points for absorbing contact more than a 3 pt shooter. Like is said, if you make it apples to apples, Butler is 2.7 better.

So what happens if you do factor in free throws? They do matter don't they? Butler gets to the line 11 times a game, how could it hurt his cause? Still, how does it matter if Butler is the better player or not. Durant probably has an edge over Lebron by at least 2.7 points, but you're not going to call him better than Lebron.

Let's just say this: Butler is the better defender, better at getting to the line, and better rebounder. Klay is the better shooter (which I guess doesn't matter because he averages less points per shot?) and shot creator and he's already proven that his output is sustainable. Both are equally good passers statistically, both finish well around the rim. You can make the case EITHER WAY.

And again, I AM NOT DISCOUNTING ANYTHING BUTLER HAS DONE. HE IS A VERY GOOD PLAYER. VERY VERY GOOD. He's good enough to be in the discussion for best two way guard in the league. That's good enough for me. Who is actually better between him and Klay is rather irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

And you're wrong. They wanted a guy who create off the dribble and make his own shot, not another 3 pt guy.

Yes and no. Yes the big want was a shot creator/scorer for the past couple years. But I do remember a time, probably 2011, where people did say something like "I wish we could fuse Korver and Butler together"

Or I can just concede everything to you, that'll probably make you more satisfied.

clonetrooper264 · Dec 25, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
But I do remember a time, probably 2011, where people did say something like "I wish we could fuse Korver and Butler together"

I don't really want to linger on this point, but just to show that I'm not pulling something out of nowhere, here are a couple examples

you could fuse Korver and Brewer into Konnie Brewver they would be a very solid player. Unfortunately it was just tough to play them big minutes unless they were on the court at the same time to offset each other.

I get your point, but if you could fuse those players into one you get an allstar caliber player,

source: http://bulls.scout.com/forums/2137-...-possible-s-amp-t-for-hinrich/123542562?s=259

Brewer isn’t a guy who will do a whole lot on the offensive end of the floor. He and Korver both aren’t versatile enough to demand very much money. Brewer might be worth nearly 5 million on another team, but not the Bulls. Unless someone invents a way to fuse Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Korver together, they won’t be worth the nearly 10 million dollars of yearly cap space.

source: http://www.chicitysports.com/2011/06/12/the-panel-bulls-salaries-and-2012-breakout/

Brewer is a better defender and Korver is a much better shooter. All I see Bogans do is brick open jumpers. If only you could fuse together Brewer and Korver and get a badass athletic defensive specialist/three-point bomber.

source: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=133743631

Danny Chau, Hardwood Paroxysm: Obviously the Bulls would like a dynamic 2-guard. In a perfect world, Chicago would somehow fuse Korver and Ronnie Brewer into a perfect wing: an athletic defender who can create his own shot (and make them). But we don't live in a perfect world. We don't even live in a world with an NBA season.

source: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-111123/chicago-bulls-roster-questions

So yeah...it was a want at some point in time.

Choisauce · Dec 25, 2014

i think if bulls get on win streak you will start to hear about bulls having the best overall back court. Rose just hasn't strung together enough good games. Butler i think is already the best overall SG tbh. I think he's probably the best perimeter defender in the league, add his ability to get to the line and post up smaller guards in ISO plays and you have the best SG in the league. The thing is we just need Rose to get back to his normal self aka MVP and ya, Rose/Butler combo will get more love from media.

Bulls will be the best team in the Eastern Conference around all-star break time. Cavs play no defense, raptors handicapped without derozan, and wiz kids can suck deez nuts.

The Hawk · Dec 25, 2014

Raskolnikov said:
Butler and Gibson are two sides of the same coin. They have a beautiful flavor for a Thibs team. We are going to be special this year, and I look forward to seeing the required effort to knock us out, or us winning. Either will be a sight to behold.

Your right about Butler and Gibson. The additions of Brooks and Mirotic as scorers off of the bench has also improved this team greatly. Think about it this way. This years team has greatly improved considering the additions of Gasol, Brooks, Mirotic, and last but not least Derrick Rose. This is a very exciting team and has not yet scratched the surface of their potential. Right now, they appear to be the only team that could compete at a high level in the western conference.

The Hawk · Dec 25, 2014

The biggest problem in these all-star votes is that defense and rebounding does not get proper recognition with the people voting. All they care about really is scoring and flash. There is not a shooting guard close to Butler as a defender. There are certainly flashier and exciting player at that position but not the complete package like he is. In addition to making an all-star team, he should get consideration as the Most Improved Player in the NBA.

Papa Wheelie · Dec 25, 2014

Choisauce said:
i think if bulls get on win streak you will start to hear about bulls having the best overall back court. Rose just hasn't strung together enough good games. Butler i think is already the best overall SG tbh. I think he's probably the best perimeter defender in the league, add his ability to get to the line and post up smaller guards in ISO plays and you have the best SG in the league. The thing is we just need Rose to get back to his normal self aka MVP and ya, Rose/Butler combo will get more love from media.

Bulls will be the best team in the Eastern Conference around all-star break time. Cavs play no defense, raptors handicapped without derozan, and wiz kids can suck deez nuts.

The Bulls back court the best in the NBA? I wonder who's been saying this all along? :dunno:

2323 · Dec 25, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
I don't really want to linger on this point, but just to show that I'm not pulling something out of nowhere, here are a couple examples

source: http://bulls.scout.com/forums/2137-...-possible-s-amp-t-for-hinrich/123542562?s=259

source: http://www.chicitysports.com/2011/06/12/the-panel-bulls-salaries-and-2012-breakout/

source: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=133743631

source: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-111123/chicago-bulls-roster-questions

So yeah...it was a want at some point in time.

More generically, people were wanting another player who could create his own shot to take pressure off of Rose, which is what Butlers currently providing. But it was handy for you to find these off one comments since it's so relevant given what the vast majority of the comments were.

Bear Pride · Dec 25, 2014

Papa Wheelie said:
The Bulls back court the best in the NBA? I wonder who's been saying this all along? :dunno:

ME! Dbag ....

clonetrooper264 · Dec 25, 2014

2323 said:
More generically, people were wanting another player who could create his own shot to take pressure off of Rose, which is what Butlers currently providing. But it was handy for you to find these off one comments since it's so relevant given what the vast majority of the comments were.

Ok?

2323 · Dec 26, 2014

clonetrooper264 said:
Ok?

I know. That was kind of my point to you.

Is keeping Jimmy Butler going to be an issue?

Three if by air

My favorite teams

Well-known member

New member

I ain't your pal dickface

New member

Retired Bandwagon Mod

My favorite teams

CCS Donator

Retired Bandwagon Mod

My favorite teams

CCS Donator

New member

Retired Bandwagon Mod

My favorite teams

Retired Bandwagon Mod

My favorite teams

New member

Well-known member

My favorite teams

Well-known member

My favorite teams

New member

New member

Bears Gonna Shock the World!

Retired Bandwagon Mod

My favorite teams

New member